For those who want restrictions to return...

[Warhertisuff]

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again?

Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

To follow my last post, vaccines have done a great job, as have other medical
Interventions. If we had this level of infection a year back we'd be looking at 1,000+ deaths per day, but where does it stop.

Anti-vitals will hopefully prevent further serious illness and death, but are unlikely to be a silver bullet, and we've had flu for centuries and we've not developed anything that prevent thousands of deaths each year.

So next year when anti-vitals are fully rolled out and cases peak over the winter season and there are still deaths, what do we say then... that there's x and y in development that will make an even bigger difference so we need to continue with restrictions until these are in place...,. And on and on it goes.

I'm not against restrictions per se if necessary, it's more that some people are far too keen on them, and had it been for them, many parts of life and the economy would have remained off limits or significantly curtailed.

would still listen to the WHO giving advice re mask wearing based on the scientific evidence we have

A lot of lab and observational studies. Not conclusive at all.

@UsedUpUsername

would still listen to the WHO giving advice re mask wearing based on the scientific evidence we have

A lot of lab and observational studies. Not conclusive at all.

Well, you listen to some guy off twitter, and I'll listen to JVT and the WHO thanks,

Well you might "feel" that OP but I'm not seeing anyone saying that so it seems a strange thing to drag into the arguement.

@UsedUpUsername

would still listen to the WHO giving advice re mask wearing based on the scientific evidence we have

A lot of lab and observational studies. Not conclusive at all.

Also the WHO advice is masks are useful as part of other measures. I’m not sure they advise that masks alone are going to do anything dramatic.

www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

yes, I completely agree re being part of other measures.

You might try to be a bit more imaginative than that, Dishhh, with the tired old "have you heard of caring?" and "writing off the elderly/vulnerable". I don't imagine anyone but a psychopath would want to write people off, because people generally do care

But unfortunately the virus doesn't, so IMO there comes a time to accept that we can't control everything, not everyone can be saved all the time and there's only so much can be sacrificed while we wait for the magic bullet that doesn't exist, artificially squashing waves that will only come roaring back later

Again, I don't say all this because I want it to be so - naturally nobody does - but the lack of acceptance of our own mortality is wearing a little thin

The difficulty is the "other measures" that form a package with masks are burdensome on society and have an economic impact.

If we accept that masks and wfh are unlikely to make a significant difference if introduced in isolation then we are actually talking about re -introducing stronger restrictions. Which ones?

I have already said what I think about the measures which should be promoted as, ideally, a voluntary way of moving forward through this

There is a cost attached to increased spread of covid too.

I disagree with most of the measures listed. The poster who said children shouldn't go into school if one family member is positive. I don't agree with that.

Are they really necessary? Yes cases are up, but most people who now have it is mild and not that bad. We need to be mindful but not overreact.

I disagree with most of the measures listed. The poster who said children shouldn't go into school if one family member is positive. I don't agree with that.

No I don’t either. It’ll be the case that dc have had it soon in any case. Yes I know re not once but moving from pandemic to endemic means the picture will change

If we accept that masks and wfh are unlikely to make a significant difference if introduced in isolation then we are actually talking about re -introducing stronger restrictions. Which ones?

Most likely social isolation and lockdown, since there's not much else left

Sadly, while it's true vaccines have made some difference, that's the point where the widespread perception could easily change to "They haven't worked so what's the point having more?" (Again that's not something I'd welcome, but I try to be a realist)

Same with antivirals, when folk read that experimental drugs are being bought (and will doubtless be licenced at magical speed, though only for "emergency use"). I haven't the least doubt that headlines will appear insisting that these really are that magic bullet, but I do wonder at what point take-up of all this will start to falter

@herecomesthsun

I can see "distance where you can" and "socialise outside where you can" is that what you mean?

@Warhertisuff “The problem I have with this is, when do you stop wearing masks in schools? If you wear them when cases are low and 'under control', then presumably you'll wear them if cases are high... As cases will either be low or high, logically if follows that there isn't really a scenario where you wouldn't wear masks and you are, by default, supportive of permanent mask wearing in schools!”

No, cases are still relatively high here compared to June, when we thought we’d be able to go back to school without masks. (All adults and nearly all kids are vaccinated.)

When case numbers return to that level again (lower than 10/ 100,000 I think), we can lose the masks. If they go higher, masks return. It’s transparent and logical.

It's just as far as I'm aware that actually is already the current guidance?

Also, we haven’t locked down since May 2020. We had some restrictions - no indoor dining etc in November - Jan, but I would much rather have the (relatively minor) inconvenience of wearing a mask indoors than lurching between lockdowns and “freedom.”

@Justawaterformeplease

But masks on their own have very little impact, if you want to reduce case numbers you need to do more than mandate masks.

@Justawaterformeplease

When case numbers return to that level again (lower than 10/ 100,000 I think), we can lose the masks. If they go higher, masks return. It’s transparent and logical.

Transparent and logical maybe, but that means masks forever then 90%+ of the time, and a massive incentive not to test.

@Sunshinegirl82

It's just as far as I'm aware that actually is already the current guidance?

I just think it should be encouraged a bit more, with government ministers etc actually following it

But masks on their own have very little impact, if you want to reduce case numbers you need to do more than mandate masks.
I think a key problem with the way the UK government has handled Covid is a very "all or nothing" mindset, putting off taking any anti-Covid measures until case rates are very high indeed and then imposing extreme lockdown measures which take a long time to work because case rates have got so high. We need to recognise that no one measure alone (not even vaccination) will be enough, but lots of smaller, less dramatic measures introduced early, before things have reached crisis point, all add up collectively to make a difference.

What % of the uk population aren't vaccinated?
What % are?
We are now into whose having their booster soon.

What's going to happen to people who could be vaccinated but are choosing not to?

Do you think people have sympathy for those that are in hospital with covid, but have chosen not to be vaccinated.

@LilyPond2

But masks on their own have very little impact, if you want to reduce case numbers you need to do more than mandate masks. I think a key problem with the way the UK government has handled Covid is a very "all or nothing" mindset, putting off taking any anti-Covid measures until case rates are very high indeed and then imposing extreme lockdown measures which take a long time to work because case rates have got so high. We need to recognise that no one measure alone (not even vaccination) will be enough, but lots of smaller, less dramatic measures introduced early, before things have reached crisis point, all add up collectively to make a difference.

I accept there have been failings on the part of government but I don't think they have adopted an "all or nothing" approach (we had all the tiers, a slow exit from restrictions) I think the real difficulty is that anything short of pretty significant restrictions just doesn't have much impact on infection rates.

With delta, if you want to reduce case numbers, then you really have to go for it, anything less and you end up with the downsides of restrictions for no real benefit.

I think there is a good argument for mitigations to return (and I do wear a mask), but I do wish that people would stop saying that masks and distancing etc really easy things that don’t make much of a difference to people’s lives. They really do make many activities very difficult, for many people, and they also stop many businesses being viable

Agree with this. For many people masks are not a minor imposition - they hamper communication, make normal everyday interactions extremely difficult and prevent them from enjoying social pleasures such as a theatre or cinema trip in the same way. Regardless of Covid rates I personally don’t want to live in a society where it becomes normalised for children never to see adults smile at them in a public place. Because where kids are concerned any long term/indefinite indoor mask mandate wouldn’t just constitute ‘popping one on to go to Waitrose’; it would mean masked baby groups and classes, schools, most extra-curricular activities, theatres… If that looked like being the case for my own child’s future I’d seek to move elsewhere if at all possible.

The embracing of masks as some sort of magic anti-Covid talisman has led to a situation where in the U.S. many toddlers spend the whole day masked in daycare settings and never see their care-giver’s face; where kindergarten students are mandated to wear masks while playing outside, and where high school students remain masked despite mostly being double vaxxed. There is no off-ramp for these kids. I’m grateful daily that my own family aren’t in the U.S. right now, but fear that any return of a mask mandate in the U.K. over winter would essentially remain a permanent or at least cyclical fixture.

It’s also notable that on threads like this you always get many posters casually saying that they’re willing to countenance the loss of pubs and nightclubs and a decimated hospitality industry, when the group most impacted by this (in terms of both quality of life and jobs) is once again the young. Throughout the pandemic it has seemed that some people are willing to throw any amount of hardship at the younger generations least affected by the virus in order to themselves feel that little bit safer.

Great post @TempsPerdu

Sunshinegirl82 - wfh and masks plus booster vaccines might make a difference. Even a small difference, when applied on a population level will end up having a large impact on total cases, admissions to hospital etc. Given the fragility of our health service, it’s certainly worth trying early as medical professionals have advised.

IF the govt had broken schools up and locked down earlier last year, it’s quite likely that there would have been a shorter lockdown, lower peak in cases - lower health, education and economic impact overall.