For those who want restrictions to return...

[Warhertisuff]

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again?

Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

@TacoTues

I don't care how long for.

It's only masks and distancing.

If it meant we could all get to school/work/holiday/days out etc. Then I'd gladly do that indefinitely.

It’s not the answer forever. I’d rather have a booster shot every 6 months (and I hate needles).

Bit depressing that we have vaccines but are still not able to keep serious Covid cases low. Hopefully the boffins are working on better vaccines.

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway

I've been out in different towns amd cities every single weekend since things reopened. Everywhere is heaving. From Manchester to Durham to Leeds to Exeter. Packed with people in every bar.

Your personal eperience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of others - something that you also seem to fail to grasp

I fully understand this. Which is why I acknowledged that my experience/observation is different to yours.

@TacoTues

I don't care how long for.

It's only masks and distancing.

If it meant we could all get to school/work/holiday/days out etc. Then I'd gladly do that indefinitely.

Masks and distancing clearly have minimal impact on you if you use the word “only”. For many personally and professionally they make things very difficult. It’s fine to say that you think that that difficulty is worth it, but please don’t minimise it.

@rrhuth

The loss of another round of festive revenue would likely be the thing to do it My work tried to organise a Christmas party. The individual rang 12 businesses, 11said they're not taking large bookings as they think there is a risk of changes before Christmas.

The 12th business took the booking. The RSVP date went out and roughly 10 of 30 signed up, usually about 25 go. The reason? Covid is too high and people don't want to go anyway.

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway.

My DH's business has had to rethink completely and has cut some aspects of the business entirely because people don't want it whilst rates are high.

We are having a firm wide Christmas party a week before Christmas! It will be at least 100 people. We are all asked to test before attending firm wide events (this would be the third we have had since restrictions were lifted).

No cases from either of the previous two, attendance has been good (but not compulsory).

I guess we have all have a difficult time- it's been a very difficult year and a half.

@QueenofKattegat

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway

I've been out in different towns amd cities every single weekend since things reopened. Everywhere is heaving. From Manchester to Durham to Leeds to Exeter. Packed with people in every bar.

This is true in London places we’ve been to too.

@herecomesthsun

I guess we have all have a difficult time- it's been a very difficult year and a half.

We have indeed. Things are still incredibly difficult for my CEV loved ones, who are divided themselves between wanting restrictions imposed because they feel more able to go out and about that way, and wanting no restrictions because they feel they have had enough and are as protected as they can be. I am very on the fence, I see the difficulties on both sides, personally and professionally

@QueenofKattegat

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway

I've been out in different towns amd cities every single weekend since things reopened. Everywhere is heaving. From Manchester to Durham to Leeds to Exeter. Packed with people in every bar.

Exactly.

I live in a city that's renowned for its partying. We've had several new bars and venues opening in the past couple of months, in buildings which previously housed venues that went out of business because of Covid restrictions. The city centre is busier than it's ever been at weekends. Interestingly, while our rates are high, they're nowhere near as high as they were last winter when everything was closed - at one point last January we had over 1000/100k cases. Now it's closer to 300/100k.

For all that, there are still so many venues here that will never reopen. Cafés, bars, a lovely independent theatre... Further restrictions (be it SD or closure) would likely decimate so many of the businesses that managed to hold on last time.

Agree with you @OliveTree75. Working in a classroom/ factory/ supermarket you come to terms with exposure to covid and are able to risk assess more logically. Nipping to the shop in your lunch hour is not a high risk activity. The London underground or the theatre, OK the risk is higher but for most people your main risk exposure is your kids anyway.

*not high risk without a mask, I meant

Hospitality is booming in my city too and the theatre aswell. Most people want to carry on living.

I mostly socialise with people who have or work with preschoolers and certainly we have all come to accept a pretty high level of exposure, and none of us have seen reduced levels of colds and bugs over the last year either so we have all been testing constantly, had lots of isolation etc. It’s just how it is with this age group.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Masks, SD and household members back to isolating where there is a positive case in the household. Those things would make a difference without being in lockdown.

Masks I am personally fine with, household members isolating i can get on board with if it's a short term measure and people for whom it means being unable to work ard given financial compensation. But what exactly do you mean by SD? People trying to keep 2m away from other shoppers in the supermarket and other shops? Yeah no problem with that. Places likes restaurants and bars and theatres having to limit how many people they can allow in? I wouldn't be happy with that unless very very short term (as in a month or so) as it's not economically sustainable. People having to keep 2m away from family and friends they don't live with? I would really really struggle with that.

I see nobody is answering you question OP
I specifically answered the OP's question and so have many others on this thread!

@RichTeaRichTea

I think there is a good argument for mitigations to return (and I do wear a mask), but I do wish that people would stop saying that masks and distancing etc really easy things that don’t make much of a difference to people’s lives. They really do make many activities very difficult, for many people, and they also stop many businesses being viable. All people have to say is “I know masks etc are difficult but I think it’s worth it to mandate them again” instead of a dismissive “masks are no bother”.

I agree with this.

I also would be very interested to see the evidence that masks reduce transmission by 50% as said upthread. High grade medical masks are excellent but I think most of the evidence suggests cloth or surgical masks have a relatively modest effect. I support wearing them because they do have some effect and every little helps, but I am tired of reading about how the difference between us and other countries is masks, as though wearing a mask stops you breathing covid out or something, because it really doesn’t.

@Warhertisuff

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again? Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

Why are you so negative? Don't you believe in vaccines either? I don't understand, there is loads of work done on antivirals, they think they have some that work, do you not believe this, then? You just think that this will run and run? I think if we can get a vaccine in less than a year then there is every reason to be optimistic about anti virals, and restrictions in the meantime so fewer people die are a good idea. Not necessarily lockdown.

So to answer your question, I think you are wrong and it will not be cyclical, so your first question is pointless.

@herecomesthsun

Yet again, wearing a mask over the worst part of the winter (for those who don't have a psychological or physical exemption) would be very sensible. In indoor crowded spaces. Also keeping some distance where you can. Meeting outdoors where possible. And so on.

How great it would be if more people joined the millions of us already doing this without legislation being passed.

Spring would seem like a good point to review whether it seems sensible to keep doing this.

I do all of the things you say, except I confess if it’s raining I don’t sit outdoors.

However, in one sense “review in spring” has answered the question but I actually don’t think it engages with the issue people are concerned about. Let’s say we review in spring. Covid will still be about. People will still be dying. And certainly come next winter the NHS will be under pressure again, and covid rates will very likely rise. If these factors being present is enough for masks, wfh and other restrictions to be implemented, do you see the concern that there won’t ever be a time when they aren’t?

A review date is all very well but when we review, covid will still be a thing. It will still be spreading. Then what?

"WouldBeGood
*Oh! See it’s been said already.

At least it’s provided a nice comparator to show they’re ineffective.
except that it doesn't show that?

As masks only offer a % reduction in spread and don't stop it altogether.

And we don't know how much worse things would have been in Scotland without them.*"

Three countries, geographically very close with very similar population demographics and rates/timing of vaccination. Two require masks and wfh, one does not. All have broadly similar levels of covid infections.

To me, that suggests that masks/wfh alone are having a minimal impact on infection rates and therefore if we want to bring case numbers down we needs stronger measures.

I can't see why it suggests that, but for masks/wfh, Scotland and Wales would have randomly had much higher rates than England. I can't see the logic behind that at all.

As part of a package of measures masks and wfh have some value. Alone their impact is minimal. Retaining them alone results in significant cost for very minimal gain in my view.

@Sunshinegirl82
That’s what I think about it. The comparison between England and Scotland/ Wales is really the best natural experiment you could have on this in terms of telling you whether a mask mandate in England would stabilise cases. At the very least in shows that the impact of mask mandates is not significant. Masks might reduce transmission by 25% in a lab but when you look over a period of time in the real world they don’t appear to have anything close to that impact.

Or if Scotland and Wales would actually have had much higher rates without masks, possibly due to previous lower infection rates, that presents issues of its own. It suggests that covid will catch up with a country in the end even if low level mitigations are kept in place. If cases are artificially kept low or naturally low due to demographic factors you will still end up having a peak at some point and it’s probably best for that not to be in the middle of winter.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Far from pretending that Covid doesn't exist, it's perhaps time to accept that science has thrown everything it can at it, and if we end up back in lockdown it won't have made enough difference - at which point I'd expect many to stop getting jabbed at all "because there's no point"

Unfortunately Covid's going nowhere, we can't be saved from everything all the time, so more - mostly very elderly and/or already very sick - will die, and perhaps the real change will only happen when folk come to terms with this

I'm glad science doesn't agree with you on this one - it hasn't thrown everything at it actually, and what it has thrown at it is working quite well (look it up!) - and we've moved on somewhat from leaving people to die. It's called 'caring' - have you heard of it?

What I haven't come to terms with is people like you writing the elderly and vulnerable off so very easily.

It isn't a scientific experiment is it?

There are lots of different variables at play vs Scotland / England / Wales' situations.

I would still listen to the WHO giving advice re mask wearing based on the scientific evidence we have.

@lescompagnonsdeloue

Why are you so negative? Don't you believe in vaccines either? I don't understand, there is loads of work done on antivirals, they think they have some that work, do you not believe this, then? You just think that this will run and run? I think if we can get a vaccine in less than a year then there is every reason to be optimistic about anti virals, and restrictions in the meantime so fewer people die are a good idea. Not necessarily lockdown.

I was posing questions to those who want continued restrictions - they weren't my views. I'm not pessimistic - I agree that things will continue to improve medically, but I have a feeling that won't be enough for some people who won't relax until Covid is eradicated.

@herecomesthsun

It isn't a scientific experiment is it?

There are lots of different variables at play vs Scotland / England / Wales' situations.

I would still listen to the WHO giving advice re mask wearing based on the scientific evidence we have.

Yes, there are some but it's the closest real world comparison we currently have. Plus people are very happy to compare us with "Europe" or "Asia" when saying we're not doing enough or we are "plague island".

Government guidance remains that masks should be worn in enclosed spaces, outdoor socialising is preferable etc they just are not mandated at this time.