For those who want restrictions to return...

[Warhertisuff]

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again?

Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

The masks have made no difference in Scotland.

As I said above @TheVampiresWife there is a long way between fully shut and fully open with no mitigations.

I am sick of people asking if I want things shut - they ask this either because they are too stupid to understand there is a sliding scale, or to create a false dichotomy. Either way, it is bollocks and doesn't help.

Re. Some areas being busy - that's fine, but not every area is the same, our international tourists are not back locally and crucially they spend far more than UK visitors. We have plenty of businesses struggling.

Oh! See it’s been said already.

At least it’s provided a nice comparator to show they’re ineffective.

Most of the hospitality sector (and other cultural venues such as theatres and music venues) cannot open with SD in place.

It's also important to remember that many of these businesses have had a very tough 18 months and are hanging by a thread as it is. It wouldn't take much at all to send a lot of the sector over the edge.

@WouldBeGood

Oh! See it’s been said already.

At least it’s provided a nice comparator to show they’re ineffective.

except that it doesn't show that?

As masks only offer a % reduction in spread and don't stop it altogether.

And we don't know how much worse things would have been in Scotland without them.

Can I ask why not?

Because me wearing a mask in a shop is going to make little difference to community spread when yesterday I sat in a hall with over 100 ks2 children belting out harvest songs whilst all of their parents sat and watched with no masks on. If I don't have to wear one at work where I mix with kids and then send them out the door to their parents and grandparents then I'm not wearing one elsewhere!

“It is a worthwhile ask (is that better?)

It is less of a hard ask than for example, what ICU nurses are doing every day (on top of wearing masks).

Or the work done by all the volunteers at vaccine stations (also wearing masks and unpaid)”

It is slightly better. However, the message from the start has been “you are selfish and feeble if you find any aspect of this difficult” (from posters on here in particular and also officialdom in many ways too). I think there would have been far less adversarial discussion had it not been “thank you for doing these things that we know are difficult”. Still we are getting accusations of selfishness without any acknowledgement of what people have given up. Saying “but these people are giving up more” when you have no idea of the circumstances of many you are talking to is not helpful. It is not a competition. You are continuing that tone. You may be fine with that. I think it helps to acknowledge what people have done, rather than categorising anyone who has made different choices to you as selfish and feeble (I am not saying you personally did this).

I volunteer at a food bank and I've seen the fallout first hand We can all see the fallout firsthand, many of us work in our communities.

This is why European nations did not shut down furlough for all sectors. The Tory government's political priorities have been wrong all the way through.

It's a mess - but the escalating poverty isn't helped by sky-high covid either. We have covid + Brexit + benefit cuts + price rises.

*if it had been

But you know what I’m trying to say

SD in hospitality isn’t the answer

People can make other choices, such as outdoor in pp which is fine but the days of making it hard for hospitality to survive are now not the priority tg

Other avenues will be first.

And given age groups where numbers are rising it doesn’t follow to do it

@TheKeatingFive

Most of the hospitality sector (and other cultural venues such as theatres and music venues) cannot open with SD in place.

It's also important to remember that many of these businesses have had a very tough 18 months and are hanging by a thread as it is. It wouldn't take much at all to send a lot of the sector over the edge.

The loss of another round of festive revenue would likely be the thing to do it.

@TheKeatingFive

Most of the hospitality sector (and other cultural venues such as theatres and music venues) cannot open with SD in place.

It's also important to remember that many of these businesses have had a very tough 18 months and are hanging by a thread as it is. It wouldn't take much at all to send a lot of the sector over the edge.

I guess wearing masks in supermarkets etc, and reducing spread that way, also indirectly benefits the hospitality part of the economy then, as hospitality presumably would really not want a lockdown further along in the winter?

And keeping cases as low as possible is likely to benefit everyone, by warding off the threat of further restrictions, as far as possible.

Tbh I think for many sectors of hospitality opening with lots of mitigations in place is the worst of both worlds. Because you can’t break even but there is very little support

@rrhuth

As I said above *@TheVampiresWife* there is a long way between fully shut and fully open with no mitigations.

I am sick of people asking if I want things shut - they ask this either because they are too stupid to understand there is a sliding scale, or to create a false dichotomy. Either way, it is bollocks and doesn't help.

Re. Some areas being busy - that's fine, but not every area is the same, our international tourists are not back locally and crucially they spend far more than UK visitors. We have plenty of businesses struggling.

What mitigations do you suggest?

SD means many venues can't open, or if they do they do so at a loss. Masks are incompatible with many venues (nightclubs, music venues etc).

Calling people stupid doesn't help anything, btw.

I see nobody is answering you question OP

Hardly anyone ever does, Delatron; you just get a hopeless faith in face masks (ignoring that numbers still shoot up with them) and "the boosters are 95% effective!!" (despite the fact that's what we were told last time and that those claims aren't peer reviewed) ... in other words a rather futile hope that the "latest thing" will make all the difference and we'll all have unicorns and rainbows if we just hang on for whatever it is

Far from pretending that Covid doesn't exist, it's perhaps time to accept that science has thrown everything it can at it, and if we end up back in lockdown it won't have made enough difference - at which point I'd expect many to stop getting jabbed at all "because there's no point"

Unfortunately Covid's going nowhere, we can't be saved from everything all the time, so more - mostly very elderly and/or already very sick - will die, and perhaps the real change will only happen when folk come to terms with this

Besides, the highest case numbers currently are in age groups that don't generally go to pubs or nightclubs. Given that rates were still very high despite hospitality being closed last winter, I'm not sure why this conversation is even relevant.

The loss of another round of festive revenue would likely be the thing to do it My work tried to organise a Christmas party. The individual rang 12 businesses, 11said they're not taking large bookings as they think there is a risk of changes before Christmas.

The 12th business took the booking. The RSVP date went out and roughly 10 of 30 signed up, usually about 25 go. The reason? Covid is too high and people don't want to go anyway.

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway.

My DH's business has had to rethink completely and has cut some aspects of the business entirely because people don't want it whilst rates are high.

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway

Go out on a Friday or Saturday night in any big city and you'd struggle to find evidence for this.

Your personal experience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of others - something that so many people on MN fail to grasp.

I agree Vampire plus it’s evident in pressure from sectors that don’t want SD to remain

@TheVampiresWife

High covid rates are affecting hospitality anyway

Go out on a Friday or Saturday night in any big city and you'd struggle to find evidence for this.

Your personal experience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of others - something that so many people on MN fail to grasp.

My DH works in the sector, my parent supplies the sector.

Your personal eperience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of others - something that you also seem to fail to grasp.

@SeasonalNamechange

i wont be wearing a mask again..they can bring them back but i am now exempt so wont bother

i suspect many of us will be the same

Err...you do know wearing a mask is to protect others...more vulnerable than you?

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I see nobody is answering you question OP

Hardly anyone ever does, Delatron; you just get a hopeless faith in face masks (ignoring that numbers still shoot up with them) and "the boosters are 95% effective!!" (despite the fact that's what we were told last time and that those claims aren't peer reviewed) ... in other words a rather futile hope that the "latest thing" will make all the difference and we'll all have unicorns and rainbows if we just hang on for whatever it is

Far from pretending that Covid doesn't exist, it's perhaps time to accept that science has thrown everything it can at it, and if we end up back in lockdown it won't have made enough difference - at which point I'd expect many to stop getting jabbed at all "because there's no point"

Unfortunately Covid's going nowhere, we can't be saved from everything all the time, so more - mostly very elderly and/or already very sick - will die, and perhaps the real change will only happen when folk come to terms with this

I answered the question

We have mitigations we can voluntarily adopt over the worst of the winter, the more people that do this the better, and we can review the situation in the spring.

And the boosters do look worth having, by the way.

No one wants to have to lockdown.

& that is the best way forward for all of us (including hospitality)

I don't care how long for.

It's only masks and distancing.

If it meant we could all get to school/work/holiday/days out etc. Then I'd gladly do that indefinitely.

@Starlightstarbright1

We are out of sync with most of the world with face masks. I think for now they should become part of our normality.

For how long i don't know.

Yep. Agree with this.

Wearing a mask isn't normal.
Lockdowns aren't normal.
Restricting peoples freedoms is not and should not become normal.
We don't live in North Korea, let people live their lives, if you want to wear a mask then do it but don't expect everyone else who's only just had a taste of their returning freedoms to do the same.