How many covid deaths per month is too many?

[PrincessNutNuts]

3000? 4000? 5000? 6000?

At what point would you begin to be uncomfortable with the body count caused by the government policy colloquially known as "living" with covid?

Boris Johnson has been reported as saying that unless 50,000 are going to die he's not changing course.

This number can be expressed as about 238 dead British people every day from September - March inclusive, or 137 deaths per day over a year. Or 416 per day from November - February inclusive.

Is another 50,000 on the covid death toll ok with you?

Or not?

It’s easy to say “enforced exercise etc” but our society doesn’t give us enough time.

Lol, turn off the internet for set periods of the day and stop broadcast tv and people would find the time.

There are all the excuses in the world, but the problem is we haven't fostered a culture of taking responsibility for our own health and that is ultimately the major issue that puts pressure on the health service.

@Worldgonecrazy

That is true. However those issues are systemic in nature and can't be solved quickly no matter who is in government at the time.

You can blame various governments for allowing the situation to arise in the first place but that won't alter the current position we find ourselves in. Personally that's why I get frustrated with "if only people weren't too selfish to wear masks we'd be fine!" as a position, it's just much too simplistic.

The brilliant thing about lockdown - which people are ignoring - is that we did have more time to exercise.

I think that may be an example of your personal experience which does not scale to the whole population. My experience of working with schools and nurseries closed definitely did not include having lots more time to exercise!

@Iggly

And if our society hadn’t ended up with such an ill in health population with huge inequalities, our covid rates would most likely be better

If you gave everyone in this country enough money for 5 portions of fruit and veg a day, oily fish twice a week & low fat foods, I bet there would still be many who wouldn't eat healthily.

People over eat and drink heavily because they want to and they like it not because they can't afford good food

@TheKeatingFive

It’s easy to say “enforced exercise etc” but our society doesn’t give us enough time.

Lol, turn off the internet for set periods of the day and stop broadcast tv and people would find the time.

There are all the excuses in the world, but the problem is we haven't fostered a culture of taking responsibility for our own health and that is ultimately the major issue that puts pressure on the health service.

I disagree.

Take my children. They’re at school, they sit down for most of the day because of the curriculum. I have to work. Out of the house 8am til 6pm.

When are they supposed to exercise? Sports in state schools is pretty dire and they don’t get nearly enough of the daily exercise that they should.

When am I supposed to exercise? (And I do by the way!)

So, I politely suggest, that you read up on the subject.

I used to think like you, but actually, then I realised that the world does not have the same experience as me so I needed to broaden my thinking a bit more.

@GoldenOmber

The brilliant thing about lockdown - which people are ignoring - is that we did have more time to exercise.

I think that may be an example of your personal experience which does not scale to the whole population. My experience of working with schools and nurseries closed definitely did not include having lots more time to exercise!

I appreciate what you’re saying but not everyone has children. (I had to home school, it was horrific but luckily I could share that with my DH. And once the kids went back to school and I was still home, there was more time).

And taking away the commute did give more time during the day.

So, again, I suggest people do some reading on this.

At this point, saying “masks reduce transmission a bit” feels like saying “taking my coffee black reduces calorie intake a bit.” Yes, it does, and if I’m on a really strict calorie-counting diet it might make a difference to weight loss, but if I’m eating and drinking whatever the hell else I want to then I will put on weight despite the black coffee.

Likewise, when we were in lockdown with very few opportunities with direct face to face contact with others we didn’t live with, making those opportunities distanced and masked may have helped. But when we have normal levels of social interaction back and most of those aren’t distanced and masked any more, then wearing a mask for thirty minutes in the big Tesco once a week won’t be enough to stop any spread that’s already started.

@GoldenOmber

The brilliant thing about lockdown - which people are ignoring - is that we did have more time to exercise.

I think that may be an example of your personal experience which does not scale to the whole population. My experience of working with schools and nurseries closed definitely did not include having lots more time to exercise!

Amen to that! I went into lockdown with a 3 year old and a 10 month old and then went back to work.

DH and I were working in shifts, 3 hour blocks to try and get 6 hours work done each a day. I was also doing the shopping for 3 families and delivering it because they were high risk and couldn't get online slots. I have never been so burned out.

@PrincessNutNuts Have you considered moving to New Zealand? I do think you would be happier there so I've done some initial research for you.

Here is a link to the New Zealand government website which tells you all about the different types of visas, work permits etc - www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwinsZDi8dXzAhVGhlwKHctYDhEQFnoECAMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newzealandnow.govt.nz%2Fchoose-new-zealand%2Fcompare-new-zealand%2Fcompare-to-the-uk&usg=AOvVaw2C-bJvCKLQkIu0nNlnu4WR. I'm not sure of your personal circumstances but you say you are a "can do, hard working, positive" person so I'm sure you'll find a suitable route into the country. Obviously you may have to wait quite a long time because "due to covid, applications from outside NZ ... are temporarily suspended".

Just beware because the NZ government website doesn't highlight the, shall we say, "morally reprehensible" bits of their visa system - for example, HIV positive people don't generally meet the "acceptable standard of health" required so are usually denied resident and work permits. I suppose they keep it vague because it doesn't fit with their nice guy image? Hopefully this doesn't apply to you though.

I'm sure you'll love it. We had the really boring "Stay Home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives" mantra. New Zealand's Covid Response Minister, Chris Hipkins told Kiwis to go outside and "spread their legs" - www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj8kua89NXzAhXJEcAKHRFiBOAQFnoECAMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2021%2Faug%2F23%2Fspread-your-legs-new-zealand-makes-hay-with-covid-ministers-gaffe&usg=AOvVaw2yIRzQe1hvO45rgG1oSvQK. Sounds fab - much more fun than here although, if I'm honest, I'm not sure how covid secure that is. In retrospect maybe we were a bit harsh on Matt Hancock - he was just following New Zealand's lead as so many Mumsnetters have been longing for.

Do let us know how you get on - you'll still be able to visit Mumsnet to let us know how sorry you feel for us and confirm that we are the laughing stock of the world.

xx

I appreciate what you’re saying but not everyone has children.

Yes, which is why I said it does not scale to everyone. Some people got more time. Some got less. Time was very unequally distributed in lockdown.

Maybe my point wasn’t well made. If we didn’t have to commute but still have childcare, we would have more time in the day.

You have to take into account the psychological impact of lockdown and the effect that has on weight gain in the population.

It won’t be everyone but enough for it to be a trend.

Take my children. They’re at school, they sit down for most of the day because of the curriculum. I have to work. Out of the house 8am til 6pm.

In the nicest possible way, anyone can get up half an hour earlier, or take half an hour out of their tv/internet schedule two or three times a week and do a YouTube workout. The Joe Wicks lockdown ones were designed to be done in a small space.

But until people actually wake up to the fact that this is their responsibility, nothing will change.

If you are a contact case or have symptoms, your PCR test remains free

Err yeh, same here, and then we have mass roll out of LFT test on top which is picking up 1,000s of very mild/ asymptomatic cases, particularly in children.

@TheKeatingFive

Take my children. They’re at school, they sit down for most of the day because of the curriculum. I have to work. Out of the house 8am til 6pm.

In the nicest possible way, anyone can get up half an hour earlier, or take half an hour out of their tv/internet schedule two or three times a week and do a YouTube workout. The Joe Wicks lockdown ones were designed to be done in a small space.

But until people actually wake up to the fact that this is their responsibility, nothing will change.

If you read carefully, you would see that I say I do exercise.

But what about my kids? The bad habits are set when they’re younger.

Again, I suggest you do some research.

You can blame individuals all you like - and I’m with you to some extent. But letting government off the hook? No. They’re also culpable.

I dont understand why PPs keep saying they're disgusted that we're happy with xxx number of covid deaths?

I think happy is the wrong word, accepting of would be better. I'm also accepting of cancer deaths, sepsis deaths, road deaths, malaria deaths, starvation deaths, despot regime deaths etc etc.

That's not to say that I am happy about it, I wish that there wasnt so much needless dying. But on a planet of 6 billion people there are thousands upon thousands of needless deaths that could be prevented if the nations all helped each other. Why is only covid deaths the one people on here are so up in arms about? In the grand scheme of things those excess deaths are still small.

We literally have children dying because they dont have clean water, or food to eat! That is unacceptable deaths, not dying from a virus with a 99.9% survival rate for most. Sheesh

@SickAndTiredAgain

Obviously I am talking about covid. I can't change people's behaviour towards driving. Some wear seatbelt and some respect speed limit, some don't. But we are not road rage pandemic.
Wearing mask in certain places, wash your hands and SD, as well as get vaccinated have huge impact for the society, not just for you.
It's really clear from the data from other countries. Each one of us doing small things makes huge difference as a society. Nothing like something to do with traffic death, that one idiot may cause death of someone but that won't affect someone who lives faraway from them, but may work in the same place.

But what about my kids? The bad habits are set when they’re younger.

Why can't they do the YouTube workout? My 3 and 7 year old did Joe wicks everyday during lockdown.

There's the entire weekend.

Don't they get any PE in school? Surely that's illegal.

But in pedalling this bizarrely defeatist attitude it's you that's setting them up for a lifetime of bad habits.

Honestly, how can you really try to argue that your children don't have time for 2/3 short exercise sessions a week. What are they doing all weekend? How much time are they spending playing/watching tv/online. I guarantee that's not zero.

Weight gain is more about diet than exercise, frankly. You can't run away from a bad diet, as they say.

Comfort eating and boredom eating caused by stress, isolation and endless screen time/reduced social contact are more likely to be the culprits.

No more bloody restrictions this winter, please.

Kokeshi123, but as I understand, you live in the country with minimum restrictions, where they had no actual lockdown?

@Duckrace

OP I agree with you. But these threads have now become redundant, as they'll always be swamped by conspiracy theorists, and they don't properly engage with the debate.

I think the point is that when anyone asks the op what they would do about it, they spout some shit about NZ and nothing else.

They have zero idea about the economy and would happily live under a rock for the whole of eternity to hide from covid.

I would quite happily reduce average life expectancy by a couple of years if it means we can live normal lives. I think most would agree with this.

@Nidan2Sandan

I dont understand why PPs keep saying they're disgusted that we're happy with xxx number of covid deaths?

I think happy is the wrong word, accepting of would be better. I'm also accepting of cancer deaths, sepsis deaths, road deaths, malaria deaths, starvation deaths, despot regime deaths etc etc.

That's not to say that I am happy about it, I wish that there wasnt so much needless dying. But on a planet of 6 billion people there are thousands upon thousands of needless deaths that could be prevented if the nations all helped each other. Why is only covid deaths the one people on here are so up in arms about? In the grand scheme of things those excess deaths are still small.

We literally have children dying because they dont have clean water, or food to eat! That is unacceptable deaths, not dying from a virus with a 99.9% survival rate for most. Sheesh

I absolutely agree with this.

The other factor is that our planet is massively over populated. If we prevented every possible death we could it would be a disaster for humanity and the planet would be screwed.

We literally have children dying because they dont have clean water, or food to eat! That is unacceptable deaths, not dying from a virus with a 99.9% survival rate for most.

This should be put on a placard.

For me? Up to probably about 40k excess deaths per winter.

I don't like it, but I don't like flu/ sepsis/ meningitis either and there comes a point where lockdowns will kill more.

@Watapalava

There will be excess deaths as its a new virus - its not taking the place of another so there will forever now be excess deaths

I would except up to 30-50,000 a year on top of flu given we accept up to that for flu and no one mentions anything. Covid isnt going to replace flu but itll likely affect similar numbers and i think we will have to accept that

I expect that figure to be the figure with all isolations gone though - i want it treated like flu - so no testing or forced isolation - just stay at home when sick and return when better

You come out with all that like you read it somwhere on social media.The reality is somewhat different. I should know.