Why do I have Covid if I had both jabs ?

[tellittomeslowlyandclearly]

I thought it was all a government control thing to say you can still catch covid once jabbed, but here I am and I have it. I caught from my DS getting it from school. The class has multiple cases, I tested when he did and I was clear. Then symptoms started 3 days later. DH has it too. So far DD is clear, I don't know how.

I just don't understand surely you're either immune or not? Or is it a different strain?

I know loads of people who are double jabbed who’ve tested positive. The key thing is that none of them have had much more than the sniffles.

You need to appreciate that the body has an innate immune system (basically keeping bad stuff out) and an active immune system (killing had stuff that has got in).

Not sure what an "active immune system" is supposed to be

The innate immune system is more complex than barriers like the skin. It involves many types of immune cells, including macrophages and natural killer cells. These kill stuff that has gone in, basically by identifying that stuff as "non-self" or as harmful.

The other face of the immune system is the adaptive or acquired immune system, which recognises things that has met before or that are presented to them from cells in the innate immune system.
In this category, there is a humoral response (basically antibodies) and a cellular response.
In terms of trying to predict or evaluate vaccine efficacy, we usually measure antibody levels, which are often good predictors of protection, but the cellular response can be important, and that is more difficult to assess.

The immune system is rather complicated and there are many different pathways and cells that act against pathogens.

Addressing an earlier point, the vaccines are still very effective against the Delta variant, but less than for the Alpha variant, yes.

It is certainly better to be vaccinated than not, particularly to avoid serious disease and death.
But, and as the OP has recognised, authorities have been passing on the message that we should still be careful.
Although, certificate requirements for travel, etc, do give a contradictory message.

There is no "abject failure". Vaccine developers have done very well in a very short time. Due to the Delta variant, things now could be a lot worse than a year ago without the vaccines.

You only need to compare cases against hospital admissions and deaths pre and post vaccine rollout to see how successful the vaccine is.

[quote Miseryl]@Lweji First time I got COVID I was completely asymptomatic and unjabbed. This time I've had all the classic symptoms and felt like death warmed up for a few days. So a lot worse! [/quote]
I don’t dispute your experience, of course. But it is a mistake to generalise from one experience - you need to look at large numbers of people and see how things stack up..

Reinfections with Covid are a) statistically unlikely (but do happen to some people); b) overwhelmingly milder than first infections (but some people get it worse)

Furthermore, being vaccinated after having been infected gives a higher level of protection against infection. See around 16 minutes into Tim Spector’s report here:

@Lweji

You need to appreciate that the body has an innate immune system (basically keeping bad stuff out) and an active immune system (killing had stuff that has got in).

Not sure what an "active immune system" is supposed to be

The innate immune system is more complex than barriers like the skin. It involves many types of immune cells, including macrophages and natural killer cells. These kill stuff that has gone in, basically by identifying that stuff as "non-self" or as harmful.

The other face of the immune system is the adaptive or acquired immune system, which recognises things that has met before or that are presented to them from cells in the innate immune system.
In this category, there is a humoral response (basically antibodies) and a cellular response.
In terms of trying to predict or evaluate vaccine efficacy, we usually measure antibody levels, which are often good predictors of protection, but the cellular response can be important, and that is more difficult to assess.

The immune system is rather complicated and there are many different pathways and cells that act against pathogens.

As I said, my explanation was a gross oversimplification.

And yes, "active immune system" should have been "adaptive immune system".

The next step along the discussion (as you rightly imply) is that adaptive immunity isn't just about antibodies. Antibodies wane over time, and thus someone previously vaccinated (or infected) can potentially become reinfected.

However, memory cells should do their job at this point and (another oversimplification - sorry) the adaptive immune system will "hit the ground running" producing antibodies. This is why reinfection (or infection after vaccination) should be less severe than a first-time infection (where the immune system has a bit of a slow start trying to work out what antibodies to use against this new pathogen).

In the earlier poster's experience, it didn't seem to work out that way. She got reinfected (maybe just very unlucky...) and then (this is the curious bit) got considerably worse than the first time around.

There could be any number of theories as to why: e.g. much larger dose of infecting virus second time around, more virulent strain 2nd time around, suppressed immune system second time around (possibly shortly after Vax dose, or possibly other life factors), possible ADE. On an internet forum, all we can really do is speculate, but whatever it was, it would need to be a pretty significant effect to overcome the theoretical protection from the prior infection and vaxx.

There could be any number of theories as to why: e.g. much larger dose of infecting virus second time around, more virulent strain 2nd time around, suppressed immune system second time around (possibly shortly after Vax dose, or possibly other life factors), possible ADE. On an internet forum, all we can really do is speculate, but whatever it was, it would need to be a pretty significant effect to overcome the theoretical protection from the prior infection and vaxx.

There have been no reported cases of ADE, and actual experts do not expect this to be an issue regarding coronavirus and the vaccines - people are not getting more ill because they have been vaccinated. Hence why we have gone ahead with vaccinating the general population. So nope, I wouldn't be throwing that out there as a plausible explanation, despite all attempts from anti-vaccine groups to scare people about it.

Reinfection occurs, vaccines are not 100% effective, we are faced with new variants which cause a much higher viral load & can partially evade prior immunity. There will be some people in this situation, but fortunately they are the minority.

None of this is a credible argument as to why someone should turn down vaccination for coronavirus (or be scared into not having it), although as posters have repeated told you @IncredulousOne, it's your choice whether you get vaccinated or not, but why push nonsense to misinform others?

By the way, thank you for an interesting and expository contribution to the discussion.

It is nice to have a sensible discussion with a knowledgeable poster, who doesn't just jump up and down (metaphorically) screaming "stupid anti-vaxxer, I hope you die!"

I'm not anti-vaxx. I am cautious about the Covid vaccines as there are so many unknowns. (I take the "informed" part of informed consent quite seriously!)

My concerns have been exacerbated by potential problems having been swept under the carpet, at least until the evidence becomes overwhelming. (I gave examples of some problems that were initially dismissed but are now accepted as vaxx-related).

I am also upset that anyone raising such concerns is slurred as an anti-vaxxer, a conspiracy theorist, or worse. However I do agree that they provide effective (~95%) protection against hospitalisation and death and so it makes sense for the vulnerable to be vaccinated despite the unknowns.

However, if bodily autonomy means anything at all, participation in society cannot be used as leverage to coerce the population into accepting any medical procedure...

@riveted1

There could be any number of theories as to why: e.g. much larger dose of infecting virus second time around, more virulent strain 2nd time around, suppressed immune system second time around (possibly shortly after Vax dose, or possibly other life factors), possible ADE. On an internet forum, all we can really do is speculate, but whatever it was, it would need to be a pretty significant effect to overcome the theoretical protection from the prior infection and vaxx.

There have been no reported cases of ADE, and actual experts do not expect this to be an issue regarding coronavirus and the vaccines - people are not getting more ill because they have been vaccinated. Hence why we have gone ahead with vaccinating the general population. So nope, I wouldn't be throwing that out there as a plausible explanation, despite all attempts from anti-vaccine groups to scare people about it.

Reinfection occurs, vaccines are not 100% effective, we are faced with new variants which cause a much higher viral load & can partially evade prior immunity. There will be some people in this situation, but fortunately they are the minority.

None of this is a credible argument as to why someone should turn down vaccination for coronavirus (or be scared into not having it), although as posters have repeated told you @IncredulousOne, it's your choice whether you get vaccinated or not, but why push nonsense to misinform others?

Oh, you're back again, are you riveted1?

Sounding a bit defensive on the ADE front. It's only one of many possible explanations, and has been seen in other (failed) attempts at producing Coronavirus vaccines so is at least a possibility.

Once again, all I am doing is keeping my mind open to the various possibilities, while all you are doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la-la-la as soon as anyone even mildly criticises your precious vaccines.

Oh, and riveted1, it's your choice whether to get vaccinated or not, but why are you pushing non-stop propaganda to misinform others?

@IncredulousOne

Oh, and riveted1, it's your choice whether to get vaccinated or not, but why are you pushing non-stop propaganda to misinform others?

That goes both ways

well what other jabs do we have they don't stop you catching it?

Pretty much all of them! There's no guarantees with any of them.

I was v lucky I only got one of the childhood ones. My brother who was fully vaccinated got every single one! He got measles twice!

Vaccines REDUCE the risk of catching and the severity of the illness but they're not and never have been a total guarantee. Nothing is 100%

I mean how can you test positive, but not have it yet if you don't have symptoms?

Again most infections work this way. There's an incubation period - the time it takes from initial infection to when symptoms appear. That's normal with all infections. But your immune system is already responding, it's when your immune system reaches a "major" level of responding that symptoms appear, most of them are your body fighting off the infection -

Fever/chills - because infections are generally fussy buggers about their preferred temp to grow in so your body messes this up for them

Snotty nose - to carry out the germs when you blow it and make the environment less hospitable for them

Cough - to forcibly expel germs from lungs

You get the idea yea?

Basically your body does all it can to make it as unwelcome as possible to the little bastards!

Our bodies can be amazingly clever - and super useless and annoying at times.

I'm just getting over a bout myself I'm not jabbed yet as due to complex health and organisational issues here I haven't been able to receive vaccination. I've now got to wait until I'm more recovered so that I can tolerate the vaccine and any possible side effects which is frustrating

I'm disabled too so very much get the "bodies not doing what they 'should'" thing too

But mostly our bodies are pretty amazing

MrsRobbieHart

Please make sure your children are in school as much as possible OP.

@CoughingInAisle15

I know loads of people who are double jabbed who’ve tested positive. The key thing is that none of them have had much more than the sniffles.

If only

I'm double jabbed and had Covid two weeks ago.

I felt like I'd been hit by a truck at first and was in bed for days and am still not well. I'm in my 40s.

@Desirey

It's a vaccine full of shit, that's why! Natural immunity is our best tool!

You might need a couple of history lessons. Natural immunity didn’t serve our ancestors particularly well for much. Does your view extend to letting your immune system deal with it when your really sick with anything or do you relent at the point you need medical support?

There’s something mildly psychotic publicly advocating for natural immunity when we live in a period of amazing scientific achievements. You crack on with your immune system - I’m going to take full advantage of living in the 21st century thanks.

Natural immunity didn't work that well for polio sufferers, or people whose mum got infected with rubella during pregnancy, or men who caught mumps as a child and became infertile, or Roald dahls daughter

@IncredulousOne

Oh, and riveted1, it's your choice whether to get vaccinated or not, but why are you pushing non-stop propaganda to misinform others?

You keep saying this and I keep asking you to please link any examples of my "propaganda" or "misinformation"? I am a scientist, my only interest is that people can make an informed decision and I reply to your posts that contain clear bullshit about vaccine efficacy or safety.

I've repeatedly said the vaccine aren't 100%, they cause certain side effects, immunity wanes (best immunity is clearly from double vaccination + infection, plus regular exposure), and that I'm on the fence about children being offered it as I'm not sure it's worth it.

All you're doing is repeating back the statement I asked you - None of this is a credible argument as to why someone should turn down vaccination for coronavirus (or be scared into not having it), although as posters have repeated told you @IncredulousOne, it's your choice whether you get vaccinated or not, but why push nonsense to misinform others?

Vaccination is not making people more ill when they are exposed to coronavirus.

Sounding a bit defensive on the ADE front. It's only one of many possible explanations, and has been seen in other (failed) attempts at producing Coronavirus vaccines so is at least a possibility. Once again, all I am doing is keeping my mind open to the various possibilities, while all you are doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la-la-la as soon as anyone even mildly criticises your precious vaccines.

This is legitimately an insane reply @IncredulousOne

There are obviously limitations and side effects associated with the vaccines which I've posted about. I'm beginning to think this is either a deliberate smear campaign on your part or you're just confusing me with someone else.

I'm not "defensive" about ADE, I'm just sick of people repeating nonsense on social media they don't understand, which initiated from anti-vaxxer groups. You realise that myths like this cause death & disability by putting high risk people off vaccination, and cause considerable anxiety in those already vaccinated?

There have been thousands of experts, with far more experience than you, involved in the design and the roll out the vaccines. I don't know why you think, if ADE was a genuine concern, and people were going to get more sick and die because they'd been vaccinated, this would have gone ahead.

@MrsRobbieHart

Please make sure your children are in school as much as possible OP.

😆

Yeah a close relative contracted polio as a child. They are still living with the consequences of that infection today. They were lucky they lived but months in an iron lung was no fun.