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You are not alone

124 replies

HitchhikersGuide · 14/09/2021 08:10

For those of us increasingly concerned by government policy and in particular the sidelining of science and the JCVI in relation to the mass vaccination of children, I thought I would put my head above the parapet to say that you are not as alone as the media makes you feel. There are many of us questioning and desperately worried about where this ends. So I thought I would list a few places where I found some solace and confirmation that DH and I were not the only ones feeling the way we did. For the left-leaning, a good, not too depressing place to start is Left Lockdown Sceptics. A totally different take on life outside the middle class bubble of neurosis that is fed to us daily. For the religious (or not) Irreverend is brilliant. Their podcasts are measured, and thoughtful. For the more right wing, The Daily Sceptic allows discussion of all coronavirus issues and has reports from a very measured and sensible doctor. On that note, for NHS - lovers, look up the Nurse who asks Questions, or Dr Sam White. For those interested in the law, Law or Fiction is a good place to start. To meet a vast array of very diverse people, try a Stand in the Park - people gathering on green spaces to support each other. Or if you're near a city, find out about protest marches. Media blackouts make them hard to find but hundreds of thousands have marched in London on the last Saturday of the month for ages now. Speaking of protests, the French have got it nailed as ever. From Paris, through Marseille, from Clermont Ferrand to tiny villages where people gather for protest picnics (of course!) These are horrible times and the feeling of isolation has made it very hard to bear, and I hope this helps others who feel alone.

OP posts:
gogohm · 14/09/2021 09:48

There's nothing wrong we th reading sites like this but make sure you read a good number of sources from many viewpoints otherwise you are not getting the full picture. Statistics can prove nearly anything! They back up the world view of the author by being selective.

Yes myocarditis is a concern but so is long covid in young people, missing school and the infringements on social life are also concerning... my young people are a little older and fully vaccinated because they wanted to be, they actively chose to get leftover vaccine in the spring and it worked - dd was in close quarters twice and didn't catch covid. She cannot risk long covid effects due to her career. All vaccines and medicines have side effects, calculating the risks isn't easy for lay people and the government (at the wrath of the teaching unions) has delayed far longer than many countries.

Ultimately it's a choice but if you choose not to i do think schools should have the right to restrict that person or insist on masks etc.

Worldgonecrazy · 14/09/2021 09:48

Wish I’d kept the source but many years ago, when reviewing vaccination options, there was some research suggesting that the higher the education and IQ, the more likely to challenge, question and decide against certain vaccines.

Of course, I’m old enough to remember when only a tiny minority went to university so things have changed a lot over my lifetime, sadly not all for the better. I will actively discourage my child from pursuing higher education given the level of learning we see these days.

But I have allowed myself to be derailed. As I said, we are not alone. Many people only got vaccinated due to threat of travel restrictions, not for any ‘greater good’.

I’ve been out and about a lot and it is great to see people waking back up to normality. The more of us that embrace normal, the more we allow those who are still scared of societal disapproval to throw off their mental chains and return to normal behaviours.

blackforesthotchoc · 14/09/2021 09:48

If anyone is in Manchester this weekend, there is a meeting about vaccine passports on the 18th September 12 to 4 at Friends Meeting House in the town centre - good number of speakers like Clare Craig, Ros Jones, Colin Alexander. Its absolutely focused on discriminatory impact of vaccine passports on different communities, bodily autonomy, how they will likely be used in future (social credit) etc. Definitely worth going if you are questioning yourself or know anyone who is too - and people who think they will be fabulous "for our safety" but would like to know more about potential issues. Definitely no talk of 5G, Bill Gates or anything else that acts as a turnoff for a lot of people in that space!

Geamhradh · 14/09/2021 09:51

@blackforesthotchoc

If anyone is in Manchester this weekend, there is a meeting about vaccine passports on the 18th September 12 to 4 at Friends Meeting House in the town centre - good number of speakers like Clare Craig, Ros Jones, Colin Alexander. Its absolutely focused on discriminatory impact of vaccine passports on different communities, bodily autonomy, how they will likely be used in future (social credit) etc. Definitely worth going if you are questioning yourself or know anyone who is too - and people who think they will be fabulous "for our safety" but would like to know more about potential issues. Definitely no talk of 5G, Bill Gates or anything else that acts as a turnoff for a lot of people in that space!
That's the HART group, right?

www.logically.ai/articles/hart-files-anti-vaccine-myths-westminster

ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 09:53

@Worldgonecrazy

Wish I’d kept the source but many years ago, when reviewing vaccination options, there was some research suggesting that the higher the education and IQ, the more likely to challenge, question and decide against certain vaccines.

Of course, I’m old enough to remember when only a tiny minority went to university so things have changed a lot over my lifetime, sadly not all for the better. I will actively discourage my child from pursuing higher education given the level of learning we see these days.

But I have allowed myself to be derailed. As I said, we are not alone. Many people only got vaccinated due to threat of travel restrictions, not for any ‘greater good’.

I’ve been out and about a lot and it is great to see people waking back up to normality. The more of us that embrace normal, the more we allow those who are still scared of societal disapproval to throw off their mental chains and return to normal behaviours.

I'd be interested to see the source because as far as I know this is untrue.

Epidemiological studies have consistently demonstrated that things like choosing to be vaccinated, take part in medical trials and dismiss conspiracy theories are strongly predictive of a higher socioeconomic status and education level. Obviously there will always be exceptions, but it's a strong social gradient observed.

Relationship not seen with IQ though, suggesting it's more of an SES thing.

ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 09:54

That's the HART group, right?

Yup all the usual suspects.

They're all the same people in various iterations of groups (HART was designed and marketed to be the "credible" version until their chat logs were leaked).

userperuser · 14/09/2021 09:56

@Ibruprofenismydrugofchoice

Thank you for this OP. Sadly MN have made it perfectly clear that they only accept the official narrative, and anyone questioning it is accused of ‘misinformation’ so I suspect this we’ll be deleted.
I agree.

But yes OP you are not alone, there’s far more than you think you just wouldn’t know it reading MN.

I’ve seen many great discussions vanish simply because it did not fit the agenda.

Ontopofthesunset · 14/09/2021 09:58

I just love the OP's brave 'head above the parapet'. Like this sort of vaccine scepticism isn't absolutely everywhere, even on Mumsnet. I love the talk of media blackouts too - there are demonstrations about things all the time in Parliament Square. There's nothing to report unless lots of people get arrested or burn something down. It's perfectly possible to question whether lockdown was the right approach or to have personal concerns about vaccine safety without rejecting all advice given by the government or health authorities.

ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 10:00

@Ontopofthesunset

I just love the OP's brave 'head above the parapet'. Like this sort of vaccine scepticism isn't absolutely everywhere, even on Mumsnet. I love the talk of media blackouts too - there are demonstrations about things all the time in Parliament Square. There's nothing to report unless lots of people get arrested or burn something down. It's perfectly possible to question whether lockdown was the right approach or to have personal concerns about vaccine safety without rejecting all advice given by the government or health authorities.
Yes, and plenty of credible people who disagree with various government policies who aren't also part of the anti-vax contingent directly linked backed to Mike Yeadon/U4T/Panda/HART
Worldgonecrazy · 14/09/2021 10:06

@HitchhikersGuide

…. you are not as alone as the media makes you feel ….

So true. For me, one of the worst aspects of all this has been the very obvious social manipulation through use of media and advertising, some of which has been completely OTT and unnecessary.

As Zuby said, this is the first virus to have a PR campaign. Grin

We know that shills and bots are regularly used to manipulate public opinion in other areas so it would seem entirely plausible that those whose job it is to manipulate the public would use similar techniques during lockdowns.

The area I have found most ‘fun’ (not really!) is spotting the various loopholes and exemptions that seemed to be in every piece of legislation meaning that our darling politicians and the very wealthy were not inconvenienced too much.

knittingaddict · 14/09/2021 10:20

None of the links on here are from reputable sources. I dont know if posters are fully aware of what they are linking to or know and don't care. I have yet to see an anti vaccine post with links to a proper and valid study or to someone currently working in the field of vaccines and epidemiology or a person who is not dodgy in some way.

Out of the top 12 disseminators of anti vaccine "information" a surprising number are chiropractors. A surprising (or not so surprising fact) that I thought might be interesting to some.

TheVampiresWife · 14/09/2021 10:20

OP, the sources you are sending people to are not credible

This.

Also, you're not 'putting your head above the parapet' - you're saying what millions are already saying. And using non-credible sources to do so. Dressing it up in oh-so-reasonable language doesn't make any of it credible.

I'm not a lockdown loving doom monger by any stretch and I'm glad that life is returning to normal. But there's a world of difference between that and the sort of stuff you're advocating. The reason we're able to get back to normality is that so many have been vaccinated, and deaths and hospitalisations are therefore low. And of course, the restrictions that were put in place to hold back the tide while vaccines were developed.

Peteycat · 14/09/2021 10:24

"09:43Geamhradh

Peteycat

@underneaththeash

If you don't like this thread, don't engage.

Morning Petey.
You're not the boss of MN.
As you have scattergunned Covid threads with your misinformation and conspiracy theories, other people can come onto threads you like to try and debunk the lies"

Good morning Geamhradh,

Nice to see you have hunted down a positive thread as usual to annihilate it with your spread of doom.

No, I'm not the boss of mumsnet, nor do I scattergun or spread conspiracy theories etc. I'm not arguing with you on here, yet again because you are a lockdown fanatic. That's your choice, but this is a safe space for all who want to chat about alternative opinions to yours.

Peteycat · 14/09/2021 10:26

@Ollyollyoxenfree

"OP, the sources you are sending people to are not credible."

Says who? You?

Geamhradh · 14/09/2021 10:29

@Peteycat

"09:43Geamhradh

Peteycat

@underneaththeash

If you don't like this thread, don't engage.

Morning Petey.
You're not the boss of MN.
As you have scattergunned Covid threads with your misinformation and conspiracy theories, other people can come onto threads you like to try and debunk the lies"

Good morning Geamhradh,

Nice to see you have hunted down a positive thread as usual to annihilate it with your spread of doom.

No, I'm not the boss of mumsnet, nor do I scattergun or spread conspiracy theories etc. I'm not arguing with you on here, yet again because you are a lockdown fanatic. That's your choice, but this is a safe space for all who want to chat about alternative opinions to yours.

I didn't hunt anything down. I clicked on one of many threads I click on, saw it was full of dangerous and misleading information linking to extremely dodgy sources and jumped in. I'd love for you to link to where I've ever said I am a lockdown fanatic, because clue: I'm not...and that's rather libellous isn't it? Another lie. I don't think pointing out to people who may be vulnerable enough to fall for the dodgy stuff linked to above is spreading doom and gloom either. That would be saying stuff like "we're all going to die!" "There'll be bodies in the streets!" Lockdown is coming! Of course, if I've ever said anything of the sort, feel free to link. I don't namechange.
ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 10:29

[quote Peteycat]@Ollyollyoxenfree

"OP, the sources you are sending people to are not credible."

Says who? You?[/quote]
Yup, I gave examples of the issues surrounding Sam White and his claims, and said I'd be happy to go into detail about the others if anyone is interested.

I also pointed out there are many credible scientists who think there is debate to be had about vaccinating teens and it may not be worthwhile offering it to this group, and linked the to BMJ/MRC-IEU Covid Known Unknowns seminar which has several presentations on this.

beentoldcomputersaysno · 14/09/2021 10:30

This smacks of an us4them post, given the links to HART etc. It also seems strange that someone unconnected to them has taken the time to look at links to cover lots of demographics, all pointing to HART/us4them. As for media, Us4them are all over it!

ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 10:30

Copied and pasted from above - do you see the red flags suggesting why this person may not be a credible source @Peteycat?

Sam White is an ex-GP who has lost his medical license for spreading Mike Yeadon's misinformation (ie., vaccines are being used to kill people off) and profiting from this misinformation by directing people to his holistic medicine business. In his most recent gofundme he also claimed his bank account had been hacked and money stolen

Geamhradh · 14/09/2021 10:31

@beentoldcomputersaysno

This smacks of an us4them post, given the links to HART etc. It also seems strange that someone unconnected to them has taken the time to look at links to cover lots of demographics, all pointing to HART/us4them. As for media, Us4them are all over it!
True dat. Still, I hope the OP is enjoying his first day on MN.
ollyollyoxenfree · 14/09/2021 10:33

@beentoldcomputersaysno

This smacks of an us4them post, given the links to HART etc. It also seems strange that someone unconnected to them has taken the time to look at links to cover lots of demographics, all pointing to HART/us4them. As for media, Us4them are all over it!
Good to know you can find a targeted anti-vax group whatever your personal interests are though (although when you peel back you'll notice they're all the same people anyway Grin )
BelleHathor · 14/09/2021 10:35

Wish I’d kept the source but many years ago, when reviewing vaccination options, there was some research suggesting that the higher the education and IQ, the more likely to challenge, question and decide against certain vaccines.
A recent study from America (University of Pittsburgh) found that the most vaccine hesitant had PHDs (contrary to popular belief).
www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1

herecomesthsun · 14/09/2021 10:35

You do know that you have a choice? So if you don't want your child protected by a vaccine, just don't get them vaccinated?

It's not a conspiracy Smile

Peteycat · 14/09/2021 10:36

@Geamhradh

🤣 I never accused you of name changing!

wasthataburp · 14/09/2021 10:36

Good post OP.

Peteycat · 14/09/2021 10:37

"Good to know you can find a targeted anti-vax group whatever your personal interests are though (although when you peel back you'll notice they're all the same people anyway grin )"

Ugh.