All 12-15s to be offered single dose of Pfizer, CMOs decide

[bagofconkers]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccines-to-be-offered-to-children-aged-12-to-15-chief-medical-officers-decide-12402855

www.econlib.org/pandering-to-the-publics-ignorance/

Yeadon is part of PANDA, which should clarify what anybody needs to think.

@bumbleymummy

The mental health/education problems were caused by political decisions irt to closing schools and requiring testing/isolation for close contacts. They created a problem that they are now ‘solving’ by offering a vaccine with minimal health benefits to a population of which a majority is already thought to be immune.

It's amusing to see how you attempt to spin your response from "follow the scientists" (ie. the JCVI as their recommendations were in line with your beliefs) to ("the scientists are political" (as the JCVI have now dialled back their recommendations). Anyway, the vaccine doesn't have minimal health benefits for 12-17 year olds, not all are immune and receiving a vaccination will only add to the immunity of those who already have antibodies. This will further protect them and those around them, and allow them to return to a normal young person's life. How can you believe that be an undesirable thing?

Oblomov why are they dismissing children dying from covid as rare and therefore nothing to worry about but then saying rare side effects of the vaccine (which are much milder than death) are enough to cancel out any health benefits? And then instead of dealing with the prevalence of long covid (as it is not rare therefore not dismissible on those grounds), they just blithely say it isn’t an issue at all (see Beware for the counter argument).

If we are supposed to worry about rare events, according to them, then why are we only supposed to worry about them when it is arguing against vaccination?

They are part of an anti lockdown network and their work should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

From a WhatsApp chat with friends last night, most are going ahead with the vaccination to try and ensure their DC’s schooling isn’t interrupted any more than necessary.

It’s not mandatory so everyone can make their own decisions.

Da had his at the weekend, 6 days after his 16th birthday. He 100% wanted it and has been 100% well after it. If it protects him and his schooling, brilliant. Any protection is good. He also wanted to protect his Nan and the wider community too.

Actually @AlixandraTheGreat I was pointing out that others only seemed to be prepared to ‘follow the scientists’ (JCVI) when it agreed with their opinion. I’d already made my mind up about the vaccine for my children prior to any of their recommendations.

As for it not having minimal benefit -

The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time.

And seeing as we know that vaccinated people are still contracting and transmitting the virus (particularly with a single dose), there will still be plenty of children having to take time off school for it.

@bumbleymummy

And seeing as we know that vaccinated people are still contracting and transmitting the virus (particularly with a single dose), there will still be plenty of children having to take time off school for it.

.................... no comparable intervention in medicine reduces risk by 100%.

Vaccination (even a single dose) reduces your chance of getting coronavirus and transmitting it. Offering this to all teens will translate to significant population level protection in schools.

Not even sure why I'm bothering when this must be the 100th time you've posted this @bumbleymummy! Continue you on as you are I suppose.

“We are confident about reducing disruption; we are also confident this will not eliminate disruption,” Professor Whitty said. “Because it reduces the chance a child will get Covid — probably by about 50, 55 per cent — and it will reduce the chances that a child that gets Covid will then pass it on, we expect it will reduce the number of outbreaks in schools.”

@bumbleymummy

Actually *@AlixandraTheGreat* I was pointing out that others only seemed to be prepared to ‘follow the scientists’ (JCVI) when it agreed with their opinion. I’d already made my mind up about the vaccine for my children prior to any of their recommendations.

As for it not having minimal benefit -

The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time.

Ah yes, your follow the science ideology (except when it comes to vaccination and infectious disease it seems)

When you cherry picked that statement from the JCVI advice you carefully omitted the following

Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms

There is zero data on the long term effects of this vaccine. On even core basic things like fertility.
Surely everyone on here is aware of the fact that thousands of women have had their menstrual cycles upended post vaccination. This is not rumours it’s been confirmed.

Are people really willing to have their daughters vaccinated during puberty, with no data on the impact to them/ their periods/ their fertility?
I cannot get my head round how so many people are blithely allowing this young generation to have. trial vaccine in perfectly healthy children!

ollyollyoxenfree your correct that the press won't publish circumstantial and anecdotal figures of complications due to vaccinations however many of these complications are not being flagged up by the medics treating them in the NHS because of that reason. There's simply no way to definitively prove the correlation in your average overworked A&E department and the medics are simply not going to put their credibility on the line for a hunch. I know of several healthy adult males in their 40s and 50s that developed DVTs and consequently PEs after the astrazeneca jab. They have been told it could be down to the vaccination but we don't really know so it's labelled as unprovoked - just keep taking anticoags for the rest of your life and off you go.

@sassbott

Parents of boys seem to be clearer on this given that the risks of myocarditis for boys in particular are largely documented. But given the amount of yellow card reports on impact to women’s menstrual systems would make me reject this for girls also - so much is unknown!

This governments lack of debate, lack of transparency and constant u turning gives me zero confidence in any of the people making these decisions.

It's true that the minute risk of myocarditis has been well documented, as has the fact that more cases of myocarditis occur in the same group from Covid itself.

I'd be a bit wary, I'll be honest, if my 17 year old daughter wanted to go on the pill, what with all the potential negative side effects that have been documented for 40 years or so. But, ultimately, it would be her choice. (second dose Moderna last Thursday along with most of her class who hadn't already had the second dose)

@ollyollyoxenfree I didn’t say it was 100% effective, nor do I expect it to be. Just pointing out that having the vaccine is not going to (anywhere near) guarantee that your child is not going to have to take time off for the virus. Unless they’re already immune, of course, in which case they didn’t need it anyway.

And I didn’t ‘cherry pick’. I quoted the part that was relevant to my point. But speaking of cherry picking, you left off the second part of the sentence you quoted.

“ Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms (tables 1 to 4) but acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms .”

I don’t know 12-15 year olds can be given the choice when they’re not even allowed to vote or drive. They’re children.

My ds is about to turn 12 so he technically can have it if I don’t want him to. I’m not happy about it.

My DH thinks it’s fine and is comparing it to the polio vaccine - but polio vaccines have been around a lot longer

I’m comparing it to the swine flu vaccine.

The reasons for lockdown and vaccines are to ultimately reduce the burden on the NHS. So, while I accept that’s a longer game, I’d rather money was invested in the NHS so it has capacity to treat such illnesses quite frankly, as I doubt it will be the last.

@sassbott There’s not a great amount of knowledge about the long term effects of covid. But what is known is pretty bad - covid can leave lesions on the brain, similar to those seen in Parkinson’s disease, can damage your heart, lungs, kidneys. There’s published research on this which I’ve already linked to on this thread.

“There is zero data on the long term effects of this vaccine.”
No, this isn’t the case. mRNA vaccines have been researched and tested (in humans) for about 30 years.

@sassbott

There is zero data on the long term effects of this vaccine. On even core basic things like fertility. Surely everyone on here is aware of the fact that thousands of women have had their menstrual cycles upended post vaccination. This is not rumours it’s been confirmed.

Are people really willing to have their daughters vaccinated during puberty, with no data on the impact to them/ their periods/ their fertility?
I cannot get my head round how so many people are blithely allowing this young generation to have. trial vaccine in perfectly healthy children!

It is impossible to break the laws of physics and have long term data on time that has not elapsed yet.

We have the same issue as for COVID infection.

Given that there's a huge precedent for long term emerging complications from viral infection, and not from vaccines, I find it surprising people keep missing it.

Have said it before and I'll say it again - there is not a plausible mechanism by which a vaccine could suddenly cause complications or side effects 3 months down the line.

@bumbleymummy

Overall however the view of the UK CMOs is that the additional likely benefits of reducing educational disruption, and the consequent reduction in public health harm from educational disruption, on balance provide sufficient extra advantage in addition to the marginal advantage at an individual level identified by the JCVI to recommend in favour of vaccinating this group. (From Whitty's statement today)

This doesn't seem to be a good thing for you?

@BewareTheLibrarians and how many of those vaccines passed all clinical trials? Unless you can show me a link saying otherwise, it is largely acknowledged that these were the first mRNA vaccines to pass full trials.

I also believe Johnson and Johnson had a huge lawsuit involving previous mRNA vaccines.

I understand covid is also unknown. But what we do know right now is that (largely) children remain unaffected. Of course there are small proportion who have died which is heartbreaking. Also those who are unwell post covid and suffering debilitating long covid. These are all short term things we know.

Longer term what do we know? Re the vaccines? Too little.

course there are small proportion who have died which is heartbreaking. Also those who are unwell post covid and suffering debilitating long covid. These are all short term things we know.

Dying is a short term thing?

Oh @noblegiraffe really? Talk about pedantic to the nth degree.
The fact that some children will catch covid and die is data we know about in the short term (I.e in the last 18 months of the pandemic starting). Better?

For gods sake

I'm reading that if you've been previously infected with Covid - the vaccine often has more serious side effects.

This chimes with those I know in real life and I've read here etc

A large percentage of kids have had Covid haven't they? Either symptomatically or asymptomatically? Government/Scientists - whoever- kept spouting that to pacify us, no doubt.

But if it's true then a large percentage of kids don't need the vaccine (as natural immunity trumps the vaccine) and will suffer side effects that are likely to keep them sick off school.

Talk about minimising to the nth degree, sass.

We know that some children will catch covid and die but you would prefer to focus on speculating that the vaccine will, by some unknown mechanism, start causing unspecified problems months after it has left the system?