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Tuesday

137 replies

screwcovid · 11/09/2021 22:58

Apparently Doris holding a press conference and this fills me with anxiety is this shit ever gonna end !!
Probably trying to persuade kids to have the vaccine i despair

OP posts:
OnlyFoolsnMothers · 12/09/2021 11:18

I'm never sure why people are so bothered about it being offered to teens just the ethics behind children being vaccinated to protect adults…12yr olds can’t make decisions like that for themselves. I also think it makes more logical and almost moral sense to not waste vaccines on such young children but to send to countries struggling to obtain enough vaccines for those at risk

Sunnyfreezesushi · 12/09/2021 11:20

Lots of young and healthy and double jabbed people are not dying! It is very rare and very unlucky if that does happen like a freak accident.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 12/09/2021 11:20

@Thesandmanishere

In any case, if you care so much about your children's education being disrupted (which I completely understand!), then surely the logical thing would be to get them vaccinated.
No that’s the corner people are being pushed to. The logical thing is to accept Covid is here to stay and protect and support those most at risk.
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 12/09/2021 11:28

Can't you understand that there are young CEV people for whom a mild case is fatal and they're not allowed to leave their home? DS 31 took the risk and went out to eat with his friends for his birthday this week. It was the first time he'd been out, apart from hospital appointments, since February 2020.

Which absolutely sucks. But what can society do, when everyone has been offered the chance to be vaccinated now? CEV people should be offered booster jabs forevermore if it protects them but beyond this, I don't see what society could or should do. Lots of people have already given up so much over the past 18 months, most of whom at incredibly low risk of coronavirus. Life cannot stay on hold forever.

Mental health matters too- if there is another lockdown I won't be complying with the things that it is impossible to ignore. I don't actually mind WFH but have enjoyed the chance to go in the office and completely understand where @PinkSparklyPussyCat is coming from.

I'll be gutted if I can't go to the pub but I won't stop seeing my friends and family if they are happy to meet. Same goes for my children, although I'm praying schools won't close again.

I doubt there will be another lockdown- I don't think people would comply.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/09/2021 11:37

Thesandmanishere

Personally I don't think there will be another lockdown but it wouldn't surprise me if they re introduce mask wearing indoors and "WFH if you can" over the winter months.“

Yes, agree, pretty much this. Which makes sense.

Bennetgirl · 12/09/2021 11:40

It will be to announce the vaccine boosters, passport update and to tell us to be cautious going into autumn/winter.

I don’t think he’ll ever bring anything back. He’ll leave it to us.

Thewiseoneincognito · 12/09/2021 11:40

Hopefully he’s going to bring back face masks and wfh for the winter. The next few months are going to get very interesting to see how the governments response changes once the numbers start going into dangerously high territory.

They need to be cautious now, because to mess up at this stage could influence a bigger wave around November December and cause significant economic damage and unnecessary deaths.

‘Irreversible’ he so confidently said.

It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so damned shameful.

Thewiseoneincognito · 12/09/2021 11:44

@Bennetgirl

It will be to announce the vaccine boosters, passport update and to tell us to be cautious going into autumn/winter.

I don’t think he’ll ever bring anything back. He’ll leave it to us.

The problem is the public can not be trusted to be left to their own devices on this, it wouldn’t be an issue if it didn’t have wider implications on the well being of the population.

An overrun health system in the thick of winter is a catastrophe in the making, the government can not be seen to allow that to happen.

StealthPolarBear · 12/09/2021 11:48

Won't it be the rollout of the boosters? That's imminent surely. If the vaccines do wear off (and I'm aware that's not known yet) then the most vulnerable will be the ones at greatest risk of it having worn off.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 12/09/2021 11:49

An overrun health system in the thick of winter is a catastrophe in the making, the government can not be seen to allow that to happen.

Doesn't exactly look great that it's been so badly run into the ground that it requires normal life being put on hold yet again to prevent the shitty health system from collapsing.

Normal life should not depend on the NHS being able to function, it's disgraceful.

You can say about the public not being trusted, but do you honestly think people will continue to comply with not seeing friends and family? I think peoples mindset will have changed now. It's not like last autumn/winter, when no one had been vaccinated. People held out for vaccines and if still isn't enough to stop restrictions, people won't be so compliant IMO.

MarshaBradyo · 12/09/2021 11:50

[quote Justrealised]Sky news are reporting that he’s repealing parts of the coronavirus act, the parts that relate to shutting down the economy, restrictions on gatherings and events, closing schools and detaining infectious people. So it sounds like we won’t be having another lockdown.

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-to-repeal-parts-of-coronavirus-act-that-are-no-longer-necessary-12404836[/quote]
I’m glad

Out of all the stuff about to be talked about I hope this sticks

On the fence about Covid passports

MarshaBradyo · 12/09/2021 11:52

And fine re boosters etc

ScatteredMama82 · 12/09/2021 11:53

@Thesandmanishere

I think if you're living with a positive result, nose to bloody jowl, ie a parent, it is senseless to send them to school!

It absolutely is but people will do it anyway.

It’s not that they will do it anyway. You say that like people are just deciding to send their kids to school if there is positive case in the home. If you keep them off it’s an unauthorised absence. You have to send them to school.
BewareTheLibrarians · 12/09/2021 12:01

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

I'm never sure why people are so bothered about it being offered to teens just the ethics behind children being vaccinated to protect adults…12yr olds can’t make decisions like that for themselves. I also think it makes more logical and almost moral sense to not waste vaccines on such young children but to send to countries struggling to obtain enough vaccines for those at risk
But it’s not the case that children are being vaccinated only to protect adults.

Ds was 10, no underlying conditions, never really got ill with anything. He was healthy, sporty, slim, etc. But he got covid pretty badly. Then MIS-C. Then complications after for about a year. His heart was (still is!) affected.

Given that the cases of myocarditis after the vaccine, even the hospitalised cases, are described as “mild” and “self resolving” (meaning they don’t need treatment to get better) I’d much rather my son had been able to have been vaccinated so he didn’t have to be in pain, unable to do sports, missing school, unable to enjoy his hobbies, back and forth for tests…

He’s not the only “completely normal” child to be affected like this. Yes, thankfully it’s rare, but so are the complications after the vaccine. If covid can do this to a normal healthy child at random, people are taking a bit of a gamble that it won’t be their perfectly healthy normal children that won’t be affected. Some people are happy to gamble that, and that’s fine, but having seen first hand what covid can do, I’m not one of them.

Thewiseoneincognito · 12/09/2021 12:06

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

An overrun health system in the thick of winter is a catastrophe in the making, the government can not be seen to allow that to happen.

Doesn't exactly look great that it's been so badly run into the ground that it requires normal life being put on hold yet again to prevent the shitty health system from collapsing.

Normal life should not depend on the NHS being able to function, it's disgraceful.

You can say about the public not being trusted, but do you honestly think people will continue to comply with not seeing friends and family? I think peoples mindset will have changed now. It's not like last autumn/winter, when no one had been vaccinated. People held out for vaccines and if still isn't enough to stop restrictions, people won't be so compliant IMO.

Normal life DOES depend on the NHS being able to function, there’s no escaping that. Perhaps if we tripled our NHS investment and built specific Covid hospitals and recruited double the ICU staff levels we may have a robust chance at coping during a winter surge. Until then we must protect and cope with what we have.

I don’t know how many would comply with lockdowns again but I would expect it’s far more than you think would, if the threat was emphasised enough.

People held out for vaccines because many presumed they were our ticket out of Covid, that’s evidently not the case as we still see people being infected after double vaccination. Until after this coming winter we won’t know for sure how effective vaccines are in keeping the vulnerable safe.

Sometimes the only way to learn a lesson is the hard way, maybe we need to see what living with Covid unmitigated actually looks like before the public accepts restrictions.

Bennetgirl · 12/09/2021 12:12

@Thewiseoneincognito Totally agree. I’m 31 weeks pregnant and double jabbed, still terrified of getting it though.

I also have two secondary aged children. With the bubbles and isolation gone I don’t think I’ll avoid it much longer. I’m testing them at home every other day 😩

It feels like Boris has washed his hands of it now 🥲

Howshouldibehave · 12/09/2021 12:13

Interesting-hopefully he’ll be outlining what will be happening with the 12-15 vaccinations and when they will be starting!

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2021 12:29

From the various rumours in the press, it sounds like Tuesday it will be announced that:

The Coronavirus Act 2020 will be repealed
This is a good thing largely. For those people panicking we still have the Health & Social Care Act 2008 and the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 which have some pretty far reaching and draconian powers should they be needed over the winter. The repeal restricts the power of the executive from being even more draconian and unable to be held to account. I broadly support as it doesn't rule out Autumn / Winter restrictions (or even a lockdown imo). Instead it has an effect of stopping the government use powers in the future for non-covid reasons. Its a democratic rather than covid issue. (The gap in this I think is going to relate to what financial support may be available if restrictions are reintroduced in anyway - make of that what you will). Both the existing Act retain the power to close things like schools on the grounds of public health - and my suspicion is that Tory Backbenchers would prefer to use these acts rather than the covid act which they've always hated.

Vaccine Passports won't be implimented.
I know that lots of people won't like this, however in terms of pushing vaccinations, there's a lot of evidence that they are actually counterproductive because they increase distrust - particularly amongst groups at higher risk of covid often have higher levels of distrust in the state to begin with and this merely amplifies this. Instead, its thought that more sympathetic and sensitive approaches to increase vaccine uptake are generally more effective because they tackle mistrust/fears better. I think the threat of passports was used to increase uptake and political / legal opposition to vaccine passports has rendered the issue hard to push through too. I suspect if they did get put through, there'd be legal challenges for discrimination. This is also different from a mandatory workplace vaccination policy, which I still think could happen (and may still cause issues with legalities). I personally favour a more softly softly approach on this tbh because of the counter productive issues.

A vaccine programme for 12 - 15 year olds will be announced
I have mixed feelings about this. The JVCI opposed this for a reason. The argument about whether catching covid or getting vaccinated in this age group is still on going. Early evidence is that vaccination carries a higher risk - particularly for boys - in this group than covid itself and that long covid concerns have been disproportionate to actual cases. (I'd argue that still lots of work to do on this research area so early findings might not kept to this). Word is that because the early evidence suggests the risk with boys and pfizer is greater after 2 doses, that this age group will only get one dose not two. So this doesn't solve the political issue brewing over differing policy and international travel, that many will have hoped a vaccination programme for 12 - 15 year olds would help solve.

I think it will be popular with many though. There is an arguable case for it being of benefit for society as a whole.

Announcement of a 'Winter Plan'
Whatever the hell this may mean. There's some talk of reintroduction of some mask restrictions (will believe that when I see it). So far I've not really seen much concrete on this apart from the words 'guidance' and 'advise' which will be as much use as a chocolate teapot. Far too many people simply won't do something unless backed by law. I fear a lack of concrete proposals may force u-turns further on. I think this is pointless gesturing to appease those worried about other announcements due on Tuesday. Putting the burden of 'choice' onto individuals and business only works to a point. If there is a real 'need' for reducing social interaction - guidance is not going to be sufficient and will harm the most vulnerable first.

Axing of needing PCRs to return to the UK after travelling
Mixed feelings on this one too. On the one hand, the current exortion of passengers is dreadful and its crippling the travel industry. On the other hand the problem is that this leaves us more at risk of missing new variants coming in and being detecting as lateral flows aren't as reliable and I worry about legal reporting of cases dropping as a result of switching from PCRs to lateral flows. It does have to happen at some point. I just wonder whether doing it before Spring was the right time to do it.

HOWEVER as much as this might reduce costs to travellers, there's still the question of what airlines will require (which could still be a PCR and what destinations will still require - so people are still likely to have to test prior to travel, so the policy is going to have limited overall effect).

Booster Program Formally Launched
This one has been waivering for a bit. I think there is clear evidence of a need for it in the oldest age groups and the most clinically vulnerable. BUT I think we could still be on for a row about who gets and who doesn't get. Healthy people in their 50s may yet be excluded, at least initially. Which won't be popular. And there will be a row from people with some conditions which are off the list.

By all accounts this is going to be Pfizer only. Research seems to give a strong argument that AZ followed by Pfizer gives greatest benefits to immunity and there's always been concerns that AZ isn't quite as effective as Pfizer (though latest seems to suggest AZ immunity is longer lasting that Pfizer so the effectiveness argument is starting to falter over a longer period).

I think we are starting to fall behind on this one. We announced we had plans for this very early on, but this hasn't been pushed through at all and I think we are behind where we should be with this.

Financial impacts
It sounds benefits for isolation are going to remain. The last of furlough is set to end soon, and there's particular fears over the travel industry - hence why it looks like the relaxation of PCRs with travel is going on. I think this is the area to keep a close eye on, as I think its possibly the one going under the radar a fair amount. Politically, I think extending furlough whilst slashing UC top ups and raising NI is impossible. But its not going to go down well, if we do face another lockdown (which is still part of contigency planning - if only for prudence and worst case scenarios).

What else to look out for
I think curve projections are the thing to look out for. There are concerns things are not quite going as well as hoped. HOWEVER anyone who has been following moderate commentary on twitter, may be aware of talk of the ceiling of cases/transmission due to vaccines. This is one guy who has been following it a while:
twitter.com/video4me/status/1436723127380291586
His 'gold line theory' has held out more or less about how transmission rates will fluxuate but gradually decrease. Its broadly been following that with blips in both directions, and we look like once we pass a 'back to school' spike to start to get into R being below 1 very soon if he's right.

I also think talk about flu vaccines will come up. The HGV shortage has apparently hit this years programme forcing cancellations already. I think this may be an area of concern.

And I think the big elephant in the room, is how the NHS are going to cope with this years winter peak and just how much covid and backlog of other conditions is going to impact on that. Another lockdown is going to impact on other health conditions - but so is high caseload. This still looks like an impossible equation to calculate. Whitty said this winter could be 'very difficult' previously. I start to fear that the calculation is that restrictions will only increase non-covid deaths but no restrictions will potentially increase covid deaths meaning that both options are problematic and there's now effectively 'no way out' of the dilema and that theres a car crash immenient whatever we do and the only choice we have is to 'pick our poison' (and that probably has to fall to supporting the economy and trusting vaccines to protect the highest number of people - the most vulnerable in society are probably most at risk from both options anyway sadly)

Overall I am very much aware we have to move now from crisis management into long term management. I'm not totally convinced thats we are ready for the lap on all fronts before March. But we do need a change in tone and language and prepping parts of the public for that. I don't think we are really going to get much honesty about the NHS car crash incoming though. (This is why we've just had a big announcement about NI payments btw so they can see look what we need to do to save the NHS. It will silence many NI criticisms from the lower middle income quarters).

So I'm kinda on board and support what seems likely to happen - purely because its a rock and a hard place situation and there really are limits as to how much more can be done, post population vaccine and what is possible now in practical terms (not least from a compliance POV). Its reasonable given the mess we've ended up in - rightly or wrongly.

But yeah. I think this is probably where we are at and its comments about just how shitty this winter is going to be for the NHS is where this is really going to be and how thats framed / sold to the public.

beigebrownblue · 12/09/2021 12:33

Doris? A new member of the cabinet who might do something sensible?

x2boys · 12/09/2021 12:42

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

I'm never sure why people are so bothered about it being offered to teens just the ethics behind children being vaccinated to protect adults…12yr olds can’t make decisions like that for themselves. I also think it makes more logical and almost moral sense to not waste vaccines on such young children but to send to countries struggling to obtain enough vaccines for those at risk
Its not just to protect adults children can also be clinically extremely vulnerable, and many of the children at my childs special needs high school are, they are on oxygen, tube fed etc, adolescents are being offered the vaccine, they can make a choice wether to take it or not, my oldest son wants it.
Bbq1 · 12/09/2021 12:54

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Can't you understand why some people might want and/or need to get back to the office? There are other issues apart from Covid and not everyone can work from home even if their job can be done remotely. I've never cried so much as when I was working from home full time and I don't intend to end up like that again if I can help if.
We don't all work in offices or have the luxury of working from home though . Many of us worked on the front line during lockdown and some would have loved to be safely working from home. I'm sorry it made you unhappy but at leasr you were safer.
PatrickTheFox · 12/09/2021 13:12

@RedToothBrush not wanting to nitpick but they aren’t planning to repeal the Coronavirus Act - they are going to repeal some of the more draconian / contentious sections (so keep the bits that allow financial support for people isolating but repeal sections allowing schools / business to close). Having trouble pasting a link but you can google the statement that the government issued this morning. We’ll have to wait and see what PM says.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2021 13:22

[quote PatrickTheFox]@RedToothBrush not wanting to nitpick but they aren’t planning to repeal the Coronavirus Act - they are going to repeal some of the more draconian / contentious sections (so keep the bits that allow financial support for people isolating but repeal sections allowing schools / business to close). Having trouble pasting a link but you can google the statement that the government issued this morning. We’ll have to wait and see what PM says.[/quote]
I doubt it makes a lot of difference in practice if other acts still have the right to close those things in a public health emergency (which they do!).

I said they want to keep support for isolation, but I am not convinced they will keep other financial areas of support...

They want to look like they are down with working people...

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 12/09/2021 13:23

We don't all work in offices or have the luxury of working from home though . Many of us worked on the front line during lockdown and some would have loved to be safely working from home. I'm sorry it made you unhappy but at leasr you were safer.

It really isn't a luxury for me and I was past being unhappy, I'd reached the point of dreading waking up. That won't be happening again, I'd rather be unemployed.

PatrickTheFox · 12/09/2021 13:30

Just wanted to reassure people if they rely on some of the protections of the Act …