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Parental Consent for Vaccine

467 replies

naughty40me · 08/09/2021 10:56

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-12-to-15-year-olds-to-get-final-say-over-covid-jab-if-disagreement-with-parent-occurs-12401914

Not sure if link worked, never done it before.

Sajid Javid saying that parental consent for the vaccine won't be needed if the child decides to take it.

I am livid at this!

I have a 2DC 12 and 14. I really do not want them to have the vaccine.

I am going to have to sit and have a proper discussion with them.
Up to now, when it has been mentioned all my kids say is "but if we don't have the vaccine we won't be able to go to the cinema"...

I'm not anti vax. I've been double jabbed myself being over 40 with long term conditions and in the vulnerable category.

However, as the JCVI says, the benefit to healthy children in this age range is marginal.
I am worried about side effects, both short and long term.

I think vaccines should be a choice.
Those who want their children vaccinated should have that choice.
But those of us who don't should also have a choice.

I don't think my dc are capable of making a fully informed decision. They are children fgs.
They are having their heads filled with crap, making them watch Newsround every day in school for example.

I feel so strongly about this.
I honestly think they will end up making it a condition of school entry.

It's so wrong.

I know not many on here will agree but I for one am not happy about this at all.

OP posts:
ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 15:51

@bumbleymummy

Remember last year when people were getting ‘fired up about the hypothetical situation’ of vaccine passports? Yeah, not so hypothetical anymore.
This post makes no sense in response to mine @bumbleymummy

As I said

The majority of parents want their children to be offered the vaccine. For the minority that don't, really how many are going to be in a situation where their child is going against their wishes? I feel this is a lot of people getting fired about upset a hypothetical situation that is unlikely to impact their own children, and is just being used as an argument against offering it to this age group for the sake of it.

I don't think parent/child discordance on this is going to translate into a huge number of affected kids.

ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 15:53

A million typos as I'm on my phone, but I think you get the drift!

illuyankas · 08/09/2021 15:53

Agree, ollyollyoxenfree.

It's as if all those parents who are upset are afraid that their children may make the different choice from their parents, which is very unlikely if they talk about the issue at home.
Funny that non of pro vax parents seems to be upset that there could be a possibility that their children overrule the decision to get vaccinated by parents and say no.

MrsLCSofLichfield · 08/09/2021 15:56

I've said it before, and I'm sorry if it's already been observed in this thread, but:

Gillick competence - I fucking love it beyond all reason when someone's name gets attached to the very thing they were trying to prevent.

Anti-vaxxers can do one. Grin

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 08/09/2021 16:05

I was surprised to see my DS consent form for flu had been reworded this year to say that even if there was no parental consent the benefits of vaccination could still be discussed with my child and the child's wishes would take precedent.

I thought a completed consent form was required for primary pupils?

Remmy123 · 08/09/2021 16:25

You have to consent to flu jab for that age group in our secondary school so I bet it's the same for covid jab.

Cornettoninja · 08/09/2021 16:31

I think some posters may have to start giving their children some credit. Aside from Gillick competency children have criminal responsibility from the age of 10. Teens and pre-teens not hopelessly naive and unable to process information and absolutely should have the final say over what does and doesn’t happen to their body, including having a vaccine or not.

I would expect a young teens refusal to matter as much as their willingness of it was against their parents preference and we can’t have it both ways.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 16:32

There is no way schools will implicate themselves. Parental consent will be required for under 16's. Can you imagine the uproar if anything went wrong, which it could as its a very new drug.

If you don't want your child to have it and grow up in a world with vaccine passports then get together and refuse. Speak to your children, give them the facts.

BananaPB · 08/09/2021 16:35

I think that it's very naive to assume that the advice will be neutral or that there's enough trained staff or time to convince kids.

This is a government who put out "Look into their eyes" posters and used the bloody don't kill granny tag line. How many teens would waver if someone told them that seeing granny this Xmas when unvaccinated could kill them? Unlike their selfish reputation, teens are often very kind and would wobble if told that not being vaccinated could land someone in hospital.

They also have social media pressure. Algorithms mean they could be bombarded with info from only one extreme side of the debate and since so much content is not from medical professionals, it's gut feeling stuff like "don't be a sheep" or "don't be an uneducated and unkind idiot" sort of thing

I am also keenly watching to see if 16/17 year olds get a second vaccination. Is it supply issues delaying an announcement or is there a scientific reason that it's just the one jab?

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 16:37

"Not every individual under 16 can achieve Gillick competence in relation to every treatment proposed. Where the consequences of the treatment are profound, the benefits unclear and the long-term consequences to a material degree unknown, it may be that Gillick competence cannot be achieved, however much information and supportive discussion is undertaken"

Just found this in relation to a high profile case regarding Gillick competence. It's not as easy as some of you think.

The long term consequences to a material degree unknown.

I think that is a good statement for this situation.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 16:40

@BananaPB

I like your post. You speak brilliant truths there. This jab is being marketed for whatever reason. Emotional manipulation and coercion. It's all so wrong.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 16:42

Banana PB, when I read your post it makes me angry that they are doing this to teenagers and young people. Also, the threat of vaccine passports is swaying them because they are desperate to enjoy life and be normal. It's so wrong on so many levels that they are being coerced into an injection they may not want because of other pressures.

Cornettoninja · 08/09/2021 16:43

This jab is being marketed for whatever reason

@Peteycat Hmm

it’s not for ‘whatever reason’ it’s because there’s a global pandemic, it’s been a pretty big event. Have it, don’t have it - same goes for your dc - but why the false naivety?

frazzledali · 08/09/2021 16:45

^Clear guidelines? From this government? I admire your optimism.

I also like your insinuation that people questioning this approach are clearly too stupid to make informed decisions. Do you find calling people idiots often brings them round to your side of the argument?

While you're whining about what a rude and divided society we live in, I hope you also remember your own personal part in it^

@Notthemessiah I find that idiots will be idiots whatever I do, so I wasn't insinuating, I was directly accusing. I'm very happy to own my personal part in a 'rude and divided society'. I'll vaccinate my kids and others can choose not to vaccinate theirs, and I'll continue to think they are idiots and we'll see where our choices get us.

You do have an excellent point re: clear guidelines from the government but Gillick competence etc has clear, court-tested rulings so we can start with those.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 16:49

"16:43Cornettoninja

This jab is being marketed for whatever reason

@Peteycat hmm

it’s not for ‘whatever reason’ it’s because there’s a global pandemic, it’s been a pretty big event. Have it, don’t have it - same goes for your dc - but why the false naivety? "

I'm not saying that children should not have it if they are CEV, and their parents and doctors have agreed and assessed the needs individually. I am saying that healthy children should not have this jab, and they should not be coerced or manipulated into having it. Parental consent should be used for under 16's. What is it that you don't understand?

Do you think it's right that teenagers are only having it so that they can go to nightclubs etc? Do you honestly think that is OK?

ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 16:56

@Peteycat

"16:43Cornettoninja

This jab is being marketed for whatever reason

@Peteycat hmm

it’s not for ‘whatever reason’ it’s because there’s a global pandemic, it’s been a pretty big event. Have it, don’t have it - same goes for your dc - but why the false naivety? "

I'm not saying that children should not have it if they are CEV, and their parents and doctors have agreed and assessed the needs individually. I am saying that healthy children should not have this jab, and they should not be coerced or manipulated into having it. Parental consent should be used for under 16's. What is it that you don't understand?

Do you think it's right that teenagers are only having it so that they can go to nightclubs etc? Do you honestly think that is OK?

First off, it hasn't been offered to non-vulnerable 12-15 year olds so no of them are "having it so they can go to nightclubs" etc

Secondly, if it is offered, it will be because the direct benefits to age group outweigh any potential risks.

Thirdly, parents who do not want their children to have it if offered are in a minority. I expect parent/child discordance to be pretty low, so this isn't going to be an issue that is affecting loads of people. Unless you're someone who wants no ones child in this age group to be offered it.

BananaPB · 08/09/2021 16:57

I think that the best thing to do is for kids to get it done at vaccination centres /GP like 16/17 year olds because if there's going to be an attempt to discuss the child's choice, the child and parent will not be able to prove what was said by the adult.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 17:01

"First off, it hasn't been offered to non-vulnerable 12-15 year olds so no of them are "having it so they can go to nightclubs" etc"

I was referring to the 16/17 year olds. Oh and if you are that naive and think that age group don't go to nightclubs because they are under age, ha well dream on! No, it's not been offered but I guess it's a possibility so that's why we are discussing it!

"Thirdly, parents who do not want their children to have it if offered are in a minority. I expect parent/child discordance to be pretty low, so this isn't going to be an issue that is affecting loads of people. Unless you're someone who wants no ones child in this age group to be offered it"

Nope. Wrong again loads of parents DON'T want their kids vaccinated.

ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 17:05

@Peteycat

"First off, it hasn't been offered to non-vulnerable 12-15 year olds so no of them are "having it so they can go to nightclubs" etc"

I was referring to the 16/17 year olds. Oh and if you are that naive and think that age group don't go to nightclubs because they are under age, ha well dream on! No, it's not been offered but I guess it's a possibility so that's why we are discussing it!

"Thirdly, parents who do not want their children to have it if offered are in a minority. I expect parent/child discordance to be pretty low, so this isn't going to be an issue that is affecting loads of people. Unless you're someone who wants no ones child in this age group to be offered it"

Nope. Wrong again loads of parents DON'T want their kids vaccinated.

I feel like my entire post has gone over your head - this bit is the specific part you were referring to I guess:

parents who do not want their children to have it if offered are in a minority. I expect parent/child discordance to be pretty low, so this isn't going to be an issue that is affecting loads of people. Unless you're someone who wants no ones child in this age group to be offered it

The numbers of parents who not want their children to be offered the vaccine are relatively low. Of this number, I expect the number of those that have children opposing their wishes are also small. Therefore, I don't see this being an issue which is going to be impacting a huge amount of people - unless you're someone who's using it as an argument that no children in this age group should be offered a vaccine.

Cornettoninja · 08/09/2021 17:06

Do you think it's right that teenagers are only having it so that they can go to nightclubs etc? Do you honestly think that is OK?

Yes, If they’re attending nightclubs I would presume they’re over the age 18 and can do whatever they like for whatever reason they like.

I'm not saying that children should not have it if they are CEV, and their parents and doctors have agreed and assessed the needs individually. I am saying that healthy children should not have this jab, and they should not be coerced or manipulated into having it. Parental consent should be used for under 16's. What is it that you don't understand?

I don’t understand much about your position because I simply don’t agree that 12-15 year olds shouldn’t have the final say in their health.

The point I can’t reconcile with the above is pretending not to know the reason for the public campaign. Agree or disagree, there is still a given reason - there’s a global pandemic and although the vaccinations are 100% sterilising they do reduce transmission (alongside reducing severity of symptoms should you become symptomatic). It’s disingenuous to act like there isn’t an answer to the question you’ve posed.

It makes no sense to say we shouldn’t give it to healthy children, vaccines work best when given to healthy people full stop. They’re a preventative measure not a treatment.

severelysound · 08/09/2021 17:06

@Lostinacloud absolutely agree.

But I don't feel like you can ask questions without getting yourself a label.

And perhaps the scariest thing about it is people, friends, colleagues, my hairdresser - who I always thought were rational and sensible and logical and intelligent - seem to mostly fall somewhere on the spectrum of not caring in the slightest to full on agreement.

I had a colleague tell me the other day he wants mandatory vaccination. No more carrots and sticks, straight up criminalisation.

It's insane to me how things we wouldn't have dreamed possible two years ago are quickly becoming acceptable.

@illuyankas Why not? As parents, we can give our own children the full facts and evidence they need to make up their mind.

I'm still not understanding how we can do that when the JCVI acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms.

For otherwise healthy children:
If a child chooses to take unknown risks regarding the magnitude of potential harms over known low risks of the disease... can we even call them competent or mature enough to make the decision?

And have long-term studies been done on wether it's actually better for children (with their hypothesised excellent naive T cell response) to have immunity through vaccination or immunity through infection? Not even just on a personal level (which should always be the most important) but on that society level people keep referring back to?

The strategy (which many experts disagree with) is now to vaccinate all during a pandemic regardless of risks of disease or even prior immunity. Some experts think this strategy could turn out to be a problem because a) the vaccines cannot eradicate the virus b) they cannot eliminate infection c) there are known side effects, and side effects which may not be known yet both for individuals but also for the course of the pandemic and finally d) the waning immunity over time which means… more vaccines.

But all of that is just to ask… what full facts and evidence are you planning to give your children? The experts? Which ones?

Studies? Which ones? People keep saying the internet virologists are the problem.

So we have parents giving children the “full facts and evidence they need to make up their minds”… could the parents also give that to the growing number of PhDs who can’t make up their minds, please?

Can the parents also provide a time machine so we can see what variants are around the corner and do another risk / benefit analysis of vaccinating children who have good natural immune responses to current variants with a vaccine based on the original Wuhan variant? They could also zoom to 2023 and pick up that Pfizer report too.

And when you’ve found the cold hard evidence please share it because trying to find actual studies and not just soundbites is... interesting. An example:

Scientists say that ADE is pretty much a non-issue with COVID-19 vaccines, but what are they basing this on?

What seems to be beyond doubt is that the vaccinated subjects, over and over, show up with no severe coronavirus cases and no hospitalizations. That is the opposite of what you would expect if ADE were happening," he wrote.

Beyond doubt? Where’s the figures for that, or is this anecdotal? And even with variants that haven’t even emerged yet? Consider me reassured, Mr Expert. Confused

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 17:09

"The numbers of parents who not want their children to be offered the vaccine are relatively low. Of this number, I expect the number of those that have children opposing their wishes are also small. Therefore, I don't see this being an issue which is going to be impacting a huge amount of people - unless you're someone who's using it as an argument that no children in this age group should be offered a vaccine "

Your doing that thing again. Twisting my words. The big impact /issue is the introduction of vaccine passports in relation to vaccine status. People were laughed at last year for talking about this. I will not live in a world where that happens and accept it. That is why I have a strong desire to stop this ridiculous potential jabbing of healthy children. The vaccine is of very little benefit to healthy children. If you refer to my previous posts, I clearly say I understand that CEV children may need to have it. Hope that helps.

ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 17:12

@Peteycat

"The numbers of parents who not want their children to be offered the vaccine are relatively low. Of this number, I expect the number of those that have children opposing their wishes are also small. Therefore, I don't see this being an issue which is going to be impacting a huge amount of people - unless you're someone who's using it as an argument that no children in this age group should be offered a vaccine "

Your doing that thing again. Twisting my words. The big impact /issue is the introduction of vaccine passports in relation to vaccine status. People were laughed at last year for talking about this. I will not live in a world where that happens and accept it. That is why I have a strong desire to stop this ridiculous potential jabbing of healthy children. The vaccine is of very little benefit to healthy children. If you refer to my previous posts, I clearly say I understand that CEV children may need to have it. Hope that helps.

So you don't think any healthy children should be offered the vaccine, on the hypothetical basis that vaccine passports may cause issues for unvaccinated children?
ollyollyoxenfree · 08/09/2021 17:12

That is why I have a strong desire to stop this ridiculous potential jabbing of healthy children. The vaccine is of very little benefit to healthy children.

Vaccines, by definition, are given to healthy people. They prevent rather than treat disease.

Peteycat · 08/09/2021 17:13

@Cornettoninja

"It makes no sense to say we shouldn’t give it to healthy children, vaccines work best when given to healthy people full stop. They’re a preventative measure not a treatment"

Nope. It makes no sense to give it to healthy children.