Parental Consent for Vaccine

[naughty40me]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-12-to-15-year-olds-to-get-final-say-over-covid-jab-if-disagreement-with-parent-occurs-12401914

Not sure if link worked, never done it before.

Sajid Javid saying that parental consent for the vaccine won't be needed if the child decides to take it.

I am livid at this!

I have a 2DC 12 and 14. I really do not want them to have the vaccine.

I am going to have to sit and have a proper discussion with them.
Up to now, when it has been mentioned all my kids say is "but if we don't have the vaccine we won't be able to go to the cinema"...

I'm not anti vax. I've been double jabbed myself being over 40 with long term conditions and in the vulnerable category.

However, as the JCVI says, the benefit to healthy children in this age range is marginal.
I am worried about side effects, both short and long term.

I think vaccines should be a choice.
Those who want their children vaccinated should have that choice.
But those of us who don't should also have a choice.

I don't think my dc are capable of making a fully informed decision. They are children fgs.
They are having their heads filled with crap, making them watch Newsround every day in school for example.

I feel so strongly about this.
I honestly think they will end up making it a condition of school entry.

It's so wrong.

I know not many on here will agree but I for one am not happy about this at all.

@StarCat2020

Could you do two lists - pros and cons - with your kids?

Yes I think this is what I will do.

My DC are both really intelligent and well adjusted. We are very open with each other.

It just worries me that they will be put under a lot of peer pressure at school and will have the vaccine purely not to be the odd ones out.

Saying that, there may be a lot more parents who say no? I guess we will have to wait and see.

@BananaPB

If Covid passports are a concern of theirs, have you considered advising them to wait until they become reality ?

Advising a teen to wait until they are older (say 17/18) is a possibility that you might want to consider?

Yes this is what my friend said to my DD the other day.

Suggested she focused on her schooling and friends and worry about being let into venues etc later down the line when she's at College etc.

It does concern me though that once vaccines for this age group are made "available" then the government will introduce passports for them.

Its a huge responsibility to put on a child. Regardless of whether it's been done before with other medical treatments etc.
Children should categorically not have to be involved in such life changing decisions.

Have your kids had Covid ?

@naughty40me

I agree 100% with you. I'm late 40s, not anti vax - have been double jabbed - and agree that every family should have the choice to decide for themselves whether their under 16s get the vaccine.

I know some people are desperate for their teens to have it - I respect that and they should be entitled to it. But I would not want my 12 year old son to have it for exactly the reasons the JCVI have set out. The risk benefit analysis at their age doesn't stack up for the child's benefit.

The problem with school vaccination programme not needing parental consent for this age group is that children won't necessarily be given the full information at school to make a fully informed decision. The propaganda machine will be in full swing.

This is why it is paramount to have a full and frank conversation with your child right now. I did so last week. Told my DC that officially my consent won't be required and he might well face pressure to say yes to it.

He asked me: "What do you think, Mum, should I have it?" I told him no. We talked about risk vs benefit to him. He agreed he will not be saying yes.

Please talk to your DCnd equip them to withstand the pressure they may face.

[quote RedMarauder]Not hard to google the legal position on this - www.clarkewillmott.com/news/who-decides-whether-my-child-receives-a-covid-19-vaccination/[/quote]
That is interesting read. But does date back to 2020 with a hypothetical vaccine not an actual one and presumably without the data we now have on how kids are affected by Covid ( low risk)
And also assumes it is recommended which is not the case (by JCVI anyway).
So I don’t think it could be said to be a settled legal argument??
It does throw up lots of conundrums in families and legally potentially.

My oldest teen has been offered it and decided not to have it at the moment.
My youngest child is 12 and although she’s very sensible, she has said she doesn’t know enough about it so will go with what we decide. To be quite honest she’s a ‘normal’ 12 year old kid and isn’t that interested, she trusts us as her parents to do what we feel is right, as she should.

It does make me smile that teens at my daughters secondary school need teachers consent to take their blazer off in a heat wave, but don’t need parental consent to have a a vaccine that has no history, may have side effects and that the JVCI doesn’t support for healthy children. It does very much seem like kids are treated as competent adults when it suits.

It’s not like the original Gillick judgement which was to prevent pregnancy and childbirth, an obvious harm for a 13 year old girl. This doesn’t strike me as anywhere close to being the same argument.

I think you may be conflating two issues here. Firstly, there is the competency discussion, which is what Gillick and later Fraser considered in detail. It was determined that children should be able to make their own medical decisions, regardless of whether they were making decisions which their parents consider to be harmful. All that is necessary is the ability to understand and weigh up the risks and benefits of all of your options. It is the recognition by society that competent children have bodily autonomy.

Secondly, there are various court cases where the parents want to make a medical decision which is not in the best interest of a child who lacks competency to make the decision themselves. In those cases the courts can intervene to overrule the parents in order to prevent harm to the child. These cases demonstrate that the state is able to overrule parents in order to protect non-competent children.

The issues are linked - both situations acknowledge that children are not the property of their parents. However, it is important to separate the two because Gillick and Fraser allow a competent child to make a choice most people would consider harmful (such as refusing life-saving treatment). Whereas the other cases are only ever to prevent harm.

@BananaPB

Have your kids had Covid ?

No, touchwood.

If my soon to be 12yo was competent to make the decision (ie, was developmentally a 12yo), then ultimately it would be his decision.
I would, of course, sit down with him and explain the pros and cons, but as much as I would like him to have it, it his body and therefore if he says no I really don't have any right to force him.

As it is he doesn't have those reasoning skills.so the decision is down to me (and.his Dad), but we will still.talk to him about it. Fortunately he knows how happy I was to have mine (earlier than age group in part to protect him) and he still vividly remembers being very poorly from a common or garden cold a.couple of years back.

[quote SafferUpNorth]@naughty40me

I agree 100% with you. I'm late 40s, not anti vax - have been double jabbed - and agree that every family should have the choice to decide for themselves whether their under 16s get the vaccine.

I know some people are desperate for their teens to have it - I respect that and they should be entitled to it. But I would not want my 12 year old son to have it for exactly the reasons the JCVI have set out. The risk benefit analysis at their age doesn't stack up for the child's benefit.

The problem with school vaccination programme not needing parental consent for this age group is that children won't necessarily be given the full information at school to make a fully informed decision. The propaganda machine will be in full swing.

This is why it is paramount to have a full and frank conversation with your child right now. I did so last week. Told my DC that officially my consent won't be required and he might well face pressure to say yes to it.

He asked me: "What do you think, Mum, should I have it?" I told him no. We talked about risk vs benefit to him. He agreed he will not be saying yes.

Please talk to your DCnd equip them to withstand the pressure they may face.[/quote]
Thank you. This is exactly what I'm going to do.

I totally agree with you,the propaganda they will face at school will be overwhelming.

I can just imagine it now, the full school assembly about it etc.

I will do my best to ensure my kids know what to expect and how to say no.

It just worries me that they will be put under a lot of peer pressure at school and will have the vaccine purely not to be the odd ones out.

If this is happening then true consent has not been sought and that is serious regardless of whether the medical professionals are dealing with children or adults. IMO, children making decisions which override parental consent should not be doing so in a school environment. Competency should be assessed by trained professionals in a medical environment - eg a child who wants the vaccine without parental consent should be referred to their GP practice.

@SoManyPaws

My oldest teen has been offered it and decided not to have it at the moment. My youngest child is 12 and although she’s very sensible, she has said she doesn’t know enough about it so will go with what we decide. To be quite honest she’s a ‘normal’ 12 year old kid and isn’t that interested, she trusts us as her parents to do what we feel is right, as she should.

It does make me smile that teens at my daughters secondary school need teachers consent to take their blazer off in a heat wave, but don’t need parental consent to have a a vaccine that has no history, may have side effects and that the JVCI doesn’t support for healthy children. It does very much seem like kids are treated as competent adults when it suits.

Yes! Never thought if that but its the same here....permission needed to remove blazer, permission needed to go to the loo.

Haircut for boys no shorter than a grade 2.

No stretchy material on skirts.

Rules and rules it's bloody ridiculous when you think about it.

I was going to say if they've had Covid then there's a strong argument not to rush into getting a vaccine because they'll have antibodies. My teen had Covid this summer so I am waiting for more information on how long the benefits of vaccines last.

In my teen's case he has no opinion on the vaccine which I suspect is not uncommon. Don't know is a no right ?

Thing is they could have had it asymptomatically, it was rife before summer holidays.

We will never know I suppose.
But yes, I agree, even less point of a vaccine if they already have some immunity.

It’s madness! I have to give my permission for my 13 year old to go to the school in the next town for a sports tournament but I don’t have to be involved in the consent of a medical treatment. A medical treatment that is new technology, with potentially very serious risks to his health, no matter how rare, and with long term outcomes that nobody in the entire world currently knows.
Vaccinating teens has made no difference in Israel, Malta or Singapore. When are they going to stop with this obsession of getting every single human vaccinated? No matter what anyone says or how high the fear level remains, covid is not fatal for 99% of the population under 65 and still has a recovery rate of over 96% in the over 65’s.

@SafferUpNorth
Agreed, I’ve done the same. Already spoken to my 13 year old and told him that he may feel some pressure from school or his friends but that it’s ok to say no at this stage. In some ways I feel lucky he has had covid already because I was able to reassure him that he was totally fine when he had covid, now has natural immunity and doesn’t need a vaccine designed to protect against serious illness as we know that he won’t suffer a serious covid illness.

In my teen's case he has no opinion on the vaccine which I suspect is not uncommon. Don't know is a no right ?

I think you’re right, there will be a lot of teens who aren’t bothered either way. Afterall, for kids that are well looked after, certainly age 12, 13, 14, parents deal with all health matters really. Parents make their doctors, dental, optician appointments and go along with them. Maybe by 15/16 some kids do it a bit more by themselves, but even then often not. I think most kids age 12-14 will be happy to let their parents make the decision. My daughter doesn’t want to spend her time considering information on vaccination, she’s 12 and just getting on with school, seeing friends, playing on her iPad etc.

Don’t know is a no, right? I’d say don’t know is a discussion with parents and parents make the decision. But to me it’s all pointing to there’s no reason for healthy kids to have it in terms of health. If the government start making it difficult to go places, I suppose that may change things as socialising and having experiences are just as important as health for kids. I will disagree if this is done for kids though.

@Lostinacloud Malta have far lower rates of Covid than us. After visiting there recently I am a supporter of vaccinating 12 and overs.

To add... I also feel very strongly that it's ethically and morally wrong for developed nations like the UK to be buying up vast vaccine supplies in order to press it upon members of their population who don't need it (healthy young people)... while most developing nations are struggling to get supplies to vaccinate even the most vulnerable.

We have not seen our family (my parents, sibling etc) in one such country for 2.5 years and don't know when next we will. The country remains firmly on the UK red list and will probably be there for some time as vaccination roll-out remains slow.

The ethics of the vaccine programme also needs to be considered through a global social justice lens.

@BunsyGirl yes currently but they are past their most recent wave. They started vaccinating under 18 year olds at the end of June and had a sharp increase in cases from early July onwards.
And what about Israel?

I have been incandescent with rage at times, with this government’s overreach, but this just makes me want to cry with anger and frustration.

Who the fuck do this government think they are? What the hell message is this sending to children? That THEY know what is best for them, not those pesky parents. It’s a fucking disgrace.

And how exactly are they going to establish “competence”? Does the child have to sit and study the data and statistics? Do they have to have to give a written explanation of the meaning myocarditis? They are at no risk from this virus and there is no urgency or privacy needed as there would be from pregnancy or contraception.

No wonder the conspiracy theories are gaining traction.

@Lostinacloud Israel have a much lower overall rate of vaccinated people. Malta has the highest vaccination rate in Europe and it shows. They wear masks inside (including kids) but not many other restrictions. Everyone that enters the island has to be vaccinated (unless they are under 12 in which case they need a PCR test). They have got it right.

@Lostinacloud Malta had an increase in cases but that was before they introduced a requirement for everyone entering the country to be vaccinated. They had outbreaks affecting foreign language schools in English language schools. They got it under control. Look at the rates per 100,000 in Europe. They are among the lowest.

I agree with you, to a point, OP.

I find the pro-vax argument highly politicised, coercive and populist. There is very little space for any of us, not least kids, to make an independent objective decision.

That hugely disappoints me and makes me totally unmoved by the fact of there being benefits to society at large. To me at least, its absolutely clear that the government are using our kids as tools to assuage popular public opinion.

But that doesn’t give me excuse to do the same. In essence, I have to accept (and hope) that my kids will make the best decision they can in the circumstances. I can’t play the same game and use my kids as tools to further my own political views.

I can, however, write to my MP, Chris Whitty, etc., and make doubly sure my kids school, the governors and Friends, know absolutely the strength of feeling, and so on.

I would be surprised if any school looked lightly at overturning a parent’s view, and more especially in the circumstances. Put simply: if the kid looks like they’re justifying it on the basis of peer or societal pressure, then I suspect they would not be judged competent to override your view. But equally you downgrade your own opinion’s validity if you root your argument in politics.