No vaccines for healthy 12-15 Yr olds

[Wellbythebloodyhell]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-will-not-be-recommended-for-healthy-children-aged-12-to-15-government-advisers-say-12398444

Is anyone else glad this potential decision has been taken away? I was very much undecided about vaccinating my older dc and now feel a bit of a weight has been lifted now its not something I need to consider.

They also said the CMOs "may wish" to look at wider implications.

No, they said that the government may wish to consult with the CMOs on the wider societal and educational benefit because the JCVI could only report on the health benefits.

Knowing full well that’s what the govt will do. There was clearly a deadlock and that was the compromise agreed.

Rather a despairing letter from a professor in The Times today saying the boat has been missed anyway. And Peter Openshaw is quoted elsewhere saying how important it is to manage spread and increase immunity in this age group. I don't think he thinks we have time to wait for them all to get covid, and the inherent consequences that strategy brings so at least two dissenting scientific voices there.

Born - but that still doesn't make it the right decision. It shows it is an open question and one that we should move very carefully on. This is why I agree with the jcvi's approach.

Well yes. Some people think it’s the right decision, some won’t. When a decision is relatively finely balanced, this is what happens. The final decision always has some element of subjectivity. No one will know whether it’s the right decision until after the event. I don’t necessarily disagree with the JCVI’s decision as stated. I disagree that the final decision should be made on that very narrow basis.

I find it a bit baffling that JCVI exempted themselves from making societal decisions and only looked at the medical science. Their membership includes many estimable sociologists.

Just interested in if people don't the accept the findings of the JCVI, would they (hypothetically) accept the same findings from the CMO?

Well we'd have no choice but to accept the findings really but it would shake my confidence in Chris Whitty a bit because he has always seemed very balanced about the science and has seemed to consider the education and mental wellbeing of young people whilst others were ignoring it.

Why would it shake it? He would be looking (alongside others) at a much fuller picture which might tip the scales more. (it isn't going to tip it less, let's face it). this includes education and mental wellbeing.

Take up of vaccines in age group 12-15 in Ireland is high and they are telling us this is one reason why our numbers are starting to come down. My 12yo had his first Pfizer and will have second one soon. I am very glad about that.

One of the more puzzling parts of the JCVI’s report for me was the part where they stated that “the vaccination may cause a mild fever which may mean the child misses a few days of school.” as part of their reason for not recommending it. Covid may also cause a mild fever for a few days meaning a child would miss some school (I understand that due to their remit they can’t mention that second point, but it did make me laugh.)

Similarly, if we are contacted by NHS test and trace because ds has been exposed to a positive case, he has to have a pcr test, then stay home until the negative result comes through.

Either way, by vaccine, infection or testing, it’s the same amount of school missed. This is probably the kind of area that the CMO etc will iron out.

@bewarethelibrarians I thought that isolating close contacts was not happening anymore? So is there any need to do the PCR test - if lateral flow is positive then you just self isolate (counting day one as first day of symptoms). I think there is the assumption that parents will test kids twice a week and “do the right thing”. I am cynical and think we will still have loads of asymptomatic kids in school 😳

I thought that was weird too librarians

Close contacts don't need to wait for the negative PCR results to be allowed to return to school in England, Beware, just in Scotland. So in England they can be in lessons when the message comes through that they're positive.

The JCI were quite happy to comment on education in their last review, they suggested that the education disadvantage gap could be narrowed by allowing pupils with covid to attend school if they felt well, which is nothing to do with the vaccine. I think they can look at whatever the government instructs them to look at.

Oh yikes noble I didn’t realise that thanks for correcting me.

@theDudesmummy

Take up of vaccines in age group 12-15 in Ireland is high and they are telling us this is one reason why our numbers are starting to come down. My 12yo had his first Pfizer and will have second one soon. I am very glad about that.

Is it? TheIrish Times tracker, which is apparently updated daily, says 15.1% of under 18s have had at least one dose.

www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-tracker-how-many-people-have-been-inoculated-in-ireland-1.4481095?mode=amp

I suppose it may include under 12s who aren’t eligible.

Why would it shake it? He would be looking (alongside others) at a much fuller picture which might tip the scales more. (it isn't going to tip it less, let's face it). this includes education and mental wellbeing.

I agree with you that if there's a slight benefit healthwise in having the vaccine, including education etc should surely tip the balance massively in favour of the vaccine. So if CW came out as being against the vaccine after including those factors, I'd be thinking WTF?!

Oh, I see. Misunderstood you! Agreed.

I just want to question the info that covid is 6 times more likely to cause myocarditis than the vaccine. If it’s roughly 67 cases per million from the vaccine in the 12 - 17 age group, that’s 1 case for every 14925 vaccines. If covid causes 6 times as many cases, that’s 1 in every 2487. I read somewhere that over half the cases from the vaccine required hospitalisation, so if we assume the same for covid, that would be more than 1 in every 1243 cases of covid causing myocarditis resulting in hospitalisation in 12 - 17 year olds. Does this sound believable? I presume I’ve calculated it correctly. Are there any NHS staff or anyone that would know if it’s likely that that many covid cases in this age group have resulted in this? I need to make a decision by tomorrow morning and finding it an awful decision.

It's not to do with the hospitalisation figures. It is based on the stat that 60 in a million boys aged 12-17 seem to get myocarditis (of varying degrees of severity) as result of vaccine and 450 in a million as a consequence of covid. I don't think it has been worked down to the level of hospitalisations from each but the risk of myocarditis from covid is definitely appreciably higher.

It's a (reasonably) common side effect of a virus.

Why by tomorrow?

School are doing it on Thursday and need an answer by tomorrow. I could always wait and take him elsewhere but I might never make a decision then or it might be harder to avoid covid later on when we are weeks into the school term.

It would be interesting to know the stats by hospitalisation to see if the vaccine is potentially causing more serious cases of myocarditis than covid on the whole.

A school is doing a jab? Goodness. Not heard of that anywhere! (yet)

Nearly end of thread but it isn't. Most cases -post viral or post vaccine are treated easily and quickly, unpleasant as it is.

Conflicted. On the one hand it is clear beyond doubt that children are not affected to a large extent by Covid. Under 30 children have died (and most were receiving hospital care due to being severely ill) from Covid since the pandemic started, long Covid has recently (UCL) been found to be much rarer than thought in children, and generally more likely in female older children who had preexisting physical or psychological problems.

So the risk/benefit does not stack up and I would agree with JCVI's decision. However, from a societal point of view I can absolutely see the sense in vaccines - it may spread infection, not vaccinating those aged 12-15 might send a signal to vaccine doubters in groups that are at risk (rough cut off being over 40s) and they may be even more reluctant to vaccinate, some teachers do not want to go back to the classroom until kids are vaccinated and then there is the issue of access - travelling to certain countries is not possible unless vaccinated.

As I say, I'm usually pro-vaccine and understand the reasoning but still conflicted given that kids are at such a minuscule risk.

@Piggywaspushed

A school is doing a jab? Goodness. Not heard of that anywhere! (yet)

Yep, special needs schools.