Caught Covid due to Uni negligence?

[MaizeBlouse]

I would really like people's POV on my situation please as I'm not sure how or if to proceed with any further action. I'll include the detail so as not to drip feed but the TLDR is that I caught covid off a student but received no covid policy from the Uni I was teaching at.

I am self employed and for the purpose of this thread let's say that I am a self employed embroiderer who has worked from home for 10 years. I am the only person in my 'company' an very rarely attend anyone elses place of work (approx 4 times a year) and mainly how I work is that I email clients who tell me their embroidery needs, I make it and then post it to them. I'm outlining this to basically frame that I am unaware of usual policies or ways of working that an office or university may have as I have never worked in these environments.

A month or so ago an acquaintance of mine, Lana, got in touch to ask if I would lead a week long workshop at the Uni she works at. This would be fo the MA textiles students who haven't had training in my type of embroidery before. I was pleased to be asked as I had been thinking about doing workshops and I set about preparing the course. For added context, in the weeks before the course I recieved no support as to how to schedule or put together th teaching and any emails I sent (about integral info I.e number of students, if we would have the correct equipment an so on) would take about a week to get a response. Fine I thought, this must be what teaching is like an it's on me to problem solve on the week and follow my intuition for the course framework.

I asked Lana what the covid rules an expectations were and was told (over the phone so no record of this) that every student knows to do 2 lateral flow tests a week an that there is hand gel on site. In my potential naivety or ignorance (having never worked in this environment or with anyone but myself) I again thought, fine, that must be how it is.

The week was a success and again I was left to my own devices and only saw another member of staff (Rita) face to face on 2 occasions.

On Tuesday one of the students said they were unwell but not to worry, it wasn't Covid as they had taken a test an the GP had given them antibiotics for a throat infection. Naively I accepted this and, knowing what I know now, I understand that I should have sent the student home then an there until they provided a negative PCR or had no symptoms. However, in my ignorance I didn't know that these are the usual covid policies as I have neve taught before or worked in a "normal" work environment. I trusted that the student would be following whatever procedures they should be and that was that. The nature of embroidery is that I was sometimes in closer contact with the students so that I could get a close look at thier techniques but equally I had the door open a lot of the time an the class was often split in to two groups of 8 or sometimes one to one time. I was getting the train there and back too.

On Saturday I got an email from the poorly student to say that they had taken a PCR an it was positive. I took a lateral flow (which was negative) and a PCR the Same day. My PCR came back th next day as positive.

I have been pretty poorly since then and now I am finally feeling better it is dawning on me not only how naive I was, but also how poorly the uni has gone about this.

I got no Covid policy prior to teaching. I have now sent Lana a text (on Monday) and an email (on Wednesday) asking her if she is aware of the covid out break. I also sent Rita a text yesterday too. No response to any of these messages. So currently I don't know if they know about it, and if they do they haven't informed me.

I take some responsibility for my ignorance to not send the student home. Perhaps if I was used to working in a peopled environment I would have known to do that. I also feel awful that I put my children and my MIL, an therefore, my recently in cancer remission FIL, at risk too, as my MIL looked after my kids for one day during the week when my DP couldn't.

Lana has recently had a hard time personally which she shared with me before the course began so I am sensitive to not add to her plate. But equally I feel like I (and many other people - one student attended a wedding on the final day!) have been put at risk due to thier negligence. Not to mention that I haven't been able to work whilst I've been so ill.

What, if anything, should I do next? I am due to do more teaching there in a month and am in two minds about it. I have another teaching job at another uni in a week an today got a v long and informative covid policy with thier expectations from me as a freelancer and I was like "why didn't I get this before from the other uni! I would have been so much better protected!"

Sorry for the long post. Any thoughts welcomed.

@CarrieBlue

Welcome to teaching. At least you only had groups of 8 rather than 30+ and your students could be vaccinated so you lasted a week.

This! I’ve taught a crazy amount of pupils who’ve had “just a cold” “just a cough”, “it’s nothing” which has turned out to be Covid. It comes with the territory and to be honest, it’s not easy to mitigate whatever policies you have. Lateral flows don’t always show it, and if they don’t, a bit of hand gel is unlikely to stop it spreading. You work with students or children, you’re very likely going to catch it. Not the uni’s fault.

@MaizeBlouse

Test and Trace would contact you surely, not the uni? yes they did. Genuine Q: is it not also the unis responsibility to let me know?

I know how naive I've been but I genuinely have worked for myself for 10 years and had no idea what to expect from a university. The new uni I'm teaching at have sent me a thorough and long covid policy which is way beyond 'use hand gel'.

Someone got COVID on my course and uni didn’t let anyone know. The girl who got it only notified her tutor saying she wouldn’t be in. Track & trace notified everyone she’d been in close contact with. Why would that be the uni’s job?

All government advice is available online and everyone has to take personal responsibility in their work setting. Rules re pcr test are in the guidance so I’m taking unclear how a policy would implement different rules.

Your friend runs the uni?
As Vice-Chancellor? Rector? Bursar?
K.

I think you should have taken more responsibility for knowing the policy. But it seems really negligent of them as an employer and provider of education to their students.

I actually think in this situation it didn't end too badly. But what I'd be concerned about is it could have spread so much more. Or if this is their policy across the board then its putting lots of people at risk.

Sometimes I feel like I live in a parallel universe. I work in a secondary school and made my peace with the risk a year ago, because there wasn't any other option really.

We all take risks whenever we mix with people, wherever we mix with them.

I think it would be interesting to repost changing the scenario to a manual handling injury or something else and see what answers you get.

As a contractor on site and entirely unsupported/supervised I’d be interested to know about how responsibilities for risks to
You or your students (Covid
Or other) were ‘managed’ or ‘mitigated’

It all sounds very informal. I suspect the intended contractors process was simply ignored.

The most you could do is seek clarification on the covid procedures. As you are freelance you can choose not to work there if you are uncomfortable with the set up compared with other unis you could work at.

changing the scenario to a manual handling injury or something else

If people can’t see the different between a manual handling injury and a highly infectious, airborne disease, we’ve really got problems.

OP, this is why the government is right to move to a model of personal responsibility. It cannot be an institution’s responsibility to keep you ‘safe’ from such a disease.

Think more about your personal covid safety measures that you didn't put in place.
You didn't wear a mask and caught an airborne virus. The only person to blame is yourself.

Of all the covid measures one can think of and implement, mask is nr 1

It's a bit unclear whether your issue with the policy is that you believe you weren't told about it, or that you believe you were told but you don't like it.

From what you've said it seems like you were told. You asked about 'the covid rules and expectations' and were told that students are meant to take 2x LFTs per week and use hand gel. It doesn't sound like there's a big manual of What To Do In Every Conceivable Covid Scenario that you weren't given. It sounds like you got given all the rules they have and they just don't have many of them

As for whether the policy is good enough, that's up for debate I suppose, but it's hard to think of many other policies that would have helped you in that particular scenario where a student says they're not feeling that well but are well enough to attend class and have a negative covid test. You can't realistically demand to see their PCR result, and there's all sorts of issues with policies like "nobody who is feeling ill for any reason is allowed to come to the class regardless of tests" (I mean, how would that work for students with chronic health conditions?).

I'm sorry you got covid, and I hope you're feeling better soon.

All the talk in general (as in in life!) About covid policies/rules etc are (sorry) but a farce. A highly transmissible disease and if you only stay next to someone for eg X minutes etc and you possibly wont get it? Or if you sit indoors eating then you're safe? OP you should have known if you were going to be in a room with someone you were taking a risk and you shouldn't be trying to blame anyone. I'm so sorry but you shouldn't. And I know, I had it badly and know exactly where I hot it as it was properly in lockdown but you can't allow yourself to let it consume you. Don't do the course if you're worried if you do be aware there's a chance that whether people do lateral flows to the latter, you could still get it, but you also might not. Best of luck op

I think you are over thinking it

Most people will catch covid at some point

It’s unavoidable when so many are asymptomatic

You don’t know it was the student
The student didn’t have to prove she was negative and you can’t send her home after she says she’s had negative test
Working near students and without masks is now normal in all education settings and certainly is in mine
There are no covid laws now and contrary to Mumsnet most workplaces are indeed business as usual

I don't know how you can say you aren't aware of how things work in a working environment. For the last 18 or so months social distancing in the workplace (widely talked about on the news and herein forums), masks or visors when needing to be within 2m.

You should have also asked to see a copy of the covid policy rather than take the word of a friend who has personal stuff going on.

As for I'll students, why didn't you ask another staff member as soon as you knew a student was ill.

@MaizeBlouse

For the record I don't want to claim anything from anyone! I just want a response from the Uni who, currently, haven't even informed me that the student tested positive. Nor replied to my messages to make sure they were aware. That is pretty negligent imo.

They don't need to contact you, the student contacted you directly. You then confirmed knowing about the outbreak by messaging Lana and Rita to tell them. If anyone should be contacting you it should be test and trace. Your train journey could be two stops but you could still catch covid whilst on the train, so it is still a possible cause.

Schools return next week with no masks and huge whole school assembles and team meetings - things are back to normal and covid will spread

We are all now responsible for our own risks

What happens next time if you catch chicken pox or a sickness bug? Will you need to see their scarlet fever policy?

Probably not

I’m a uni lecturer and some stuff I teach we can’t socially distance. At such times we have to wear full ppe, gloves, visor, mask, apron for the duration of the session.

If I had an external speaker I’d make sure they were aware of this.

However we wouldn’t send a student home for a sore throat as it’s not an official covid symptom, so only the official temperature, loss of taste/smell, cough…..anything else on the official list???

I used to volunteer in a school pre Covid. If they ring me up next week and ask me to go back as all restrictions are now lifted then I will make my own risk assessment based on how comfortable I feel being close to children (I work 1:1) and whether or not I want to accept the risk based on my own circumstances and those of my family (healthwise). I appreciate that the school will have a covid policy - which they may or may not outline to me - but my own risk assessment is what will count. You should have done your own personal risk assessment and I find it hard to believe that you didn't think you should wear a mask or be at risk of catching Covid from students (whom I assume are young and probably not fully vaccinated) unless you've been living on a different planet for the last 17 months.

I work in a university. While I don’t think the university has done anything wrong exactly, and I think even if you had had all the information you needed you could easily have caught covid, this is not what would have happened where I work in terms of the policy.

There is a whole section of the staff intranet with covid-related advice and procedures. (I actually gave up on it as the volume of information was too great, and just asked my colleague who was already back in the office what was going on, but you would have found the information you needed).

I also question you being left alone as a guest lecturer with no backup, but there is a long history of guests lecturers being treated badly and being given poor information which dates well before covid, so I’m afraid I’m not very surprised.

Essentially, I don’t think this is covid-wrong so much as guest-lecturer-wrong on the part of the university

@MaizeBlouse

I will definitely be asking asking for policies in advance next time and will take more precautions for sure. I definitely knew catching covid was a possibility but was definitely ill-informed wrt best practise for protecting myself and those around me.

Well you’ve answered tor own questions there.

1. As a self employed person you need to take responsibility and ask for/read the lengthy Covid risk assessments all educational establishments have in place.

2. As a self employed person you need to take responsibility and read CLEAPPS H&S guidance which covers Covid practice for art and technology subjects including textiles.

3. As a teacher you need to take responsibility for your working environment. Ventilation, social distancing, hygiene.

4. As a teacher you need to take responsibility for dealing with suspected Covid cases in your class. Refer and ask for students to be removed.

It is your responsibility to ask for, read and respond to all the guidance in place.

If you did all of the above and found the practice unsatisfactory/unsafe because people were ignoring the rules you should have discussed the situation with your line manager before continuing with any further practical sessions.

Sorry OP but you sound like a typical ambulance chaser crying negligence where there was none in the hope of some personal gain. The uni did nothing wrong.

How on earth do you know that's where you caught it?

The students should only have gone for pcr if they had covid symptoms, a sore throat isn't one of those, officially.

Why on earth do you think the college should apologize?? That's cray.

What do you want out of this? Compo?

Did you do a LFT with a negative result at least 24 hours before stepping foot inside the building. Did you wear a mask all the while in the classroom and wash hands often?? If not why not. All the above is your responsibility.

Sorry if you've already answered my questions. I really couldn't be bothered to read the moaning long post.

A covid policy isn't a magic bubble, it's designed to reduce the risk of infection. The only way you can guarantee not to be infected is to stay in your house alone and never let anybody else in. I don't know why you didn't ask to wear a mask if you had genuine fears, nor call someone if you were worried that the boy had symptoms, you're an adult and presumably mentally competent enough to have read the news to understand how covid spreads. Regardless we will all be exposed to covid eventually, you won't be able to prove you caught it at uni and trying to get compensation from the University is ludicrous so you will fail in that. You're presumably double jabbed, so that's the best protection available and you have to take your chances with any symptoms after that.