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Ivermectin bonkersness

405 replies

Thebookswereherfriends · 31/08/2021 13:18

I’ve just been reading about people all over the world who are buying a horse dewormer medicine to “cure” Covid-19. It makes people crap themselves, go blind and causes your intestinal lining to shed! How on earth does someone think taking a medication for animals is a good idea, but having a vaccine which is designed and tested for humans by actual doctors and scientists is crazy?!

OP posts:
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speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:22

@Hoppinggreen

Well you can find the info in the public domain online presumably
Well no, I can't, which is why I'm asking?

You're the one claiming trials using ivermectin to treat LC exist.

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:23

And as I've said @Hoppinggreen - in terms of using ivermectin to prevent or as a hospital treatment, there is no robust evidence for efficacy.

You saying there is but you're unwilling to link it is pretty disingenuous.

Hoppinggreen · 31/08/2021 15:28

Like I said you dont have to believe me and as I have said I am in no way convinced myself and am fully vacced myself and very pro vax I dont know why you think I would be making it up.

randomlyLostInWales · 31/08/2021 15:32

Apparently misinformation in pandemics and general noise is a known phenomenon.

I think we should be making more about successes like:
Covid: The London bus trip that saved maybe a million lives

It's how dexamethasone was found to help.

The BMJ don't seem sold on evidence for ivermectin yet and there seems to be issues with one often cited trial paper.

ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/08/19/bmjebm-2021-111791
www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

Nature Flawed ivermectin preprint highlights challenges of COVID drug studies - there still conducting trials so still being looked at really.

If you're in a country with access to covid vaccines it's seems madness to prefer a drug not proven yet to help over them but people do do mad things and if there in a country with low access perhaps it's desperation but in US it's all been made poltical.

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:33

@Hoppinggreen

Like I said you dont have to believe me and as I have said I am in no way convinced myself and am fully vacced myself and very pro vax I dont know why you think I would be making it up.
?

You're claiming that there are trials ongoing to use ivermectin to treat LC. As far as I'm aware, none such exist, and it is usual for researchers to promote something like this and details are in public domain. However you're refusing to link any details about these trials?

You're also claiming there's evidence that a) ivermectin is effective in treating COVID and b) effective in in treating LC. Again, you're refusing to link this evidence, so I can only assume it doesn't exist?

Doesn't exactly smack of being genuine?

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:34

[quote Mummyford]@Hoppinggreen
@speckledostrichegg

Not sure why you have an NDA in place on information that's publicly available, but whatever.

As I said, I'm fully pro-vaxx, got this one the first day it was offered to me, will get every booster there is, and am highly sceptical that Ivermectin is going to offer up much of anything, but there is a trial

Here's the link
www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial[/quote]
@Mummyford

This is a well publicised trial using ivermectin to treat early symptoms of COVID not long COVID which I've posted on before.

As I've said, if such LC trials exist, they would be equally publicised.

CorrBlimeyGG · 31/08/2021 15:36

Is NDA code for "I've just made up a job to pretend I know what I'm talking about"?

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:38

@CorrBlimeyGG

Is NDA code for "I've just made up a job to pretend I know what I'm talking about"?
This was the conclusion drawn on the last ivermectin thread with @Hoppinggreen Grin
Hoppinggreen · 31/08/2021 15:42

No, I have said that early trials are showing some promising results and there is data out there that suggests efficacy - in fact I believe Chris Whitty himself is on record on the subject. A lot of the data is anecdotal and therefore not really reliable.
BUT I have not seen anything (yet) to suggest that Ivermectin is a cure for Long Covid and I think it would be dangerous to do so. Maybe the studies and the other evidence will lead to a licence when/if it’s ever presented to the MHRA but at this stage nobody knows and to be VERY clear again no drug even if it’s licenced for animals for for humans should be taken unless prescribed by a Doctor for a specific condition.

Hoppinggreen · 31/08/2021 15:42

@CorrBlimeyGG

Is NDA code for "I've just made up a job to pretend I know what I'm talking about"?
Oh no, you got me
speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:46

@Hoppinggreen

No, I have said that early trials are showing some promising results and there is data out there that suggests efficacy - in fact I believe Chris Whitty himself is on record on the subject. A lot of the data is anecdotal and therefore not really reliable. BUT I have not seen anything (yet) to suggest that Ivermectin is a cure for Long Covid and I think it would be dangerous to do so. Maybe the studies and the other evidence will lead to a licence when/if it’s ever presented to the MHRA but at this stage nobody knows and to be VERY clear again no drug even if it’s licenced for animals for for humans should be taken unless prescribed by a Doctor for a specific condition.
Third time lucky.

I have not seen any early trials showing promising findings - please can you link these? As far as I'm aware, the more recent, well conducted, well powered RCTs are sadly demonstrated ivermectin is not effective in treating COVID.

All Chris Witty has said on ivermectin is that it will be used in PRINCIPLE trial (to treat early symptoms), not that is is effective.

And again - you said you were involved in trials to use ivermectin to treat LC -are you now saying these don't exist?

illuyankas · 31/08/2021 15:49

I have said that early trials are showing some promising results and there is data out there that suggests efficacy

Don't you think it's dangerous to say this if you can't link the data? You know what's happening in US, some people would believe anything that they want to believe.

HBGKC · 31/08/2021 15:51

Medicines are often used "off-label" by physicians to treat patients i.e. without a clutch of randomised clinical trials 'proving' efficacy against a specific disease. It's a normal part of doctoring.

Many doctors across the world have tried treating Covid with Ivermectin, and have had results good enough that they now want to spread the word; because what they're interested in is helping the patient they have in front of them. They don't need (legally nor ethically) to wait for the FDA to approve a specific drug to treat a specific illness, if it's their clinical judgement that that drug could help that patient.

After all, if we were waiting for full FDA approval for the Covid vaccines, not a single jab would yet have been given.

Ivermectin, on the other hand, has been off-patent for decades, billions of doses given globally since its license in 1987, with vanishingly rare adverse events reported (unlike the vaccines).

It's on the WHO's list of essential (HUMAN) medications.

"“Since the inception of the Mectizan Donation Programme, Merck has donated well over 2.5 billion Mectizan®️ tablets for Onchocerciasis treatment, with in excess of 700 million treatments authorised. Currently, some 80–90 million people are taking the drug annually through MDA in Africa, Latin America and Yemen. A further 300 million total treatments have been approved for lymphatic filariasis, with around 90 million treatments being administered annually.”

(Mectizan is the brand name of ivermectin approved for human use in 1987.)

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 15:55

Ivermectin, on the other hand, has been off-patent for decades, billions of doses given globally since its license in 1987, with vanishingly rare adverse events reported (unlike the vaccines). It's on the WHO's list of essential (HUMAN) medications.

Again and again and again, just because a drug is effective and safe for treating parasitic diseases, does not make it safe and effective in treating coronavirus.

People go on about it being "nobel prize winning", but that is meaningless when there is no robust evidence to show it is protective in coronavirus.

Cookerhood · 31/08/2021 16:02

All trials must be registered on clintrials.gov.uk so presumably any studies ongoing on ivermectin in long Covid will be on there. It is usually a condition of the ethics committee approval.

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 16:05

@Cookerhood

All trials must be registered on clintrials.gov.uk so presumably any studies ongoing on ivermectin in long Covid will be on there. It is usually a condition of the ethics committee approval.
yup exactly

nothing on there when I last checked about ivermectin, although a reassuring amount of others testing other interventions

Mrbob · 31/08/2021 16:08

I could spout on Facebook repeatedly that statins were really great for covid. I could have spruiked them to some stupid presidents so they could
Spread the word. I could get some people to run some really low quality trials and exaggerate the data. That would in NO way mean statins help with COVID. But I could have wasted a lot of time and money and energy people could have spent on vaccines.
That’s literally what has happened. You can keep doing trials. But someone has essentially pulled a random drug out their arse (no pun intended) and everyone is convinced there MUST be some truth in it

severelysound · 31/08/2021 16:10

IME ivermectin is only peddled as a treatment for covid by anti-vaxxers.

People who are vaccinated should be asking why we aren't throwing the same global resources and billions of €$£ at finding an effective treatment, though. Not necessarily Ivermectin, just any treatment which keeps people out of hospital.

If we could nail that, we could actually, properly end this thing. Long term.

The vaccines in their current form aren't going to do that. At least not anytime in the foreseeable future.

That's probably why so many 'anti-vaxers' are asking for more research. I think it's partly wishful thinking and partly sheer frustration and perhaps a little bit 'this isn't adding up'.

The worrying part for me though is the complete shut-down of any sort of discussion or debate. The fact checkers who have crowned themselves the authority on all factual-science (as if there was such a thing) and provide no actual facts or arguments or reasoning or 'here is how they might think this is factual but actually this study says X'. Nope. Treat everyone like they're 5 with a blanket "NO EVIDENCE" statement. Which helps nobody. I have read some studies which go "against the narrative" and I want them to actually prove it wrong not just tell me "this other doctor says there's no evidence".

This strategy, though, never ever works the opposite way against the narrative. The bias of the narrative is everywhere i.e calling it "horse dewormer" in news articles when it's an anti-parasitic drug in the same way as head lice treatment is an insecticide and heparin is an anticoagulant - both of which are types of medicine used on animals.

It's like Brexit and Trump have taught us nothing. The whole 'cutting out his tongue doesn't prove you're right, only that you fear what he might say' applies.

And there's a slightly different one that I'm not clever enough to put into a saying but basically: when has mimicking or minimising ever changed an opinion? The arguments are so full of strawmen and slippery slopes and sweeping generalisations and attacks on the person rather than logical discussion and nuance.
Ivermectin = Horse Dewormer
Brexit = racist
AZ = you take the pill ffs get a massive grip
Why aren't Pfizer legally on the hook? = anti vaxxer
This will lead to domestic vax passports = conspiracy theorists
Why aren't we counting hospitalisations properly = covid denier
Does the science on masks add up = covidiot

And that's when the mass hysteria has somewhat died down and we've gotten past calling everyone granny killers.

All this does is disengage people. They switch off. Science isn't this set in stone factual thing and a strategy based on said ever changing science should have sensible discussion. Debate. Questions. Some actual investigative fucking journalism.

And the final one is the bad faith arguments you see all the time on here. Telling people the vaccine was safe in pregnancy months ago, when there was literally 0 evidence of that (and not a single 1st tri vaxed baby born). Telling people it's the same as the flu shot (the main ones here are absolutely not but that doesn't mean they're not safe - they're just not the same at all). The AZ clots was another one. And on this very thread arguing that of course pharma would push a drug if they thought it worked. Sorry, what? A cheap as chips, widely available, off-patent drug. I'm not even sure if these are bad faith or just sheer naivety but either way... frustrating and helps nobody.

There are rarely black and white answers but a lot of black and white statements. Not just here, it's rife in just about every form of media and it's not good for anyone.

Mrbob · 31/08/2021 16:10

Many doctors across the world have tried treating Covid with Ivermectin, and have had results good enough that they now want to spread the word; because what they're interested in is helping the patient they have in front of them

They might THINK it helped. That doesn’t mean it did.

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 16:11

@Mrbob

I could spout on Facebook repeatedly that statins were really great for covid. I could have spruiked them to some stupid presidents so they could Spread the word. I could get some people to run some really low quality trials and exaggerate the data. That would in NO way mean statins help with COVID. But I could have wasted a lot of time and money and energy people could have spent on vaccines. That’s literally what has happened. You can keep doing trials. But someone has essentially pulled a random drug out their arse (no pun intended) and everyone is convinced there MUST be some truth in it
Yes @Mrbob

But also other potential therapeutics for COVID treatment.

And the fact that people are turning down vaccination and taking ivermectin daily instead, even though there is no evidence it offers protection.

MilesOfSand · 31/08/2021 16:11

@Cindy974

Ivermectin is an incredibly safe drug that has been around for years, I worked in pharmacy for years and dispensed that drug a thousand times for a variety of conditions for people. Alot of medication is used for animals and humans interchangeably, Ive dispensed plenty of veterinary prescriptions too for drugs that are mainly for people.

Not sure what the point of this thread is really.

I think you’ve missed out the reason you prescribed it? Which was obviously not covid related.
speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 16:14

People who are vaccinated should be asking why we aren't throwing the same global resources and billions of €$£ at finding an effective treatment, though. Not necessarily Ivermectin, just any treatment which keeps people out of hospital.

We are @severelysound. RCTs were set up as soon as humanely possible and a shortlist of candidates drawn up and prioritised - look at trials such as solidarity, recovery, principle etc.

In addition to attempting to repurpose existing drugs, billions have been poured into developing anti-virals.

Vaccination is a better option than treatment for an novel virus that quickly became endemic, hence why development was so important.

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 16:18

The worrying part for me though is the complete shut-down of any sort of discussion or debate. The fact checkers who have crowned themselves the authority on all factual-science (as if there was such a thing) and provide no actual facts or arguments or reasoning or 'here is how they might think this is factual but actually this study says X'. Nope. Treat everyone like they're 5 with a blanket "NO EVIDENCE" statement. Which helps nobody. I have read some studies which go "against the narrative" and I want them to actually prove it wrong not just tell me "this other doctor says there's no evidence".

Again this is incorrect.

There is a huge amount of discussion on ivermectin, and why the existing body of evidence does not suggest robust evidence for efficacy. The reason I haven't gone into details is because I've posted on it heaps before.

Plenty of researchers have done long explanations of the issues regarding individual studies, and why they are at high risk of bias or have significant methodological bias. There's a huge amount of public engagement but it's drowned out by those (FLCCC etc) who are pushing ivermectin to such a huge degree.

frumpety · 31/08/2021 16:21

Can anyone explain how a drug used to treat parasitic infections in humans works against covid ? Are people saying it kills the virus or reduces the symptoms ?

speckledostrichegg · 31/08/2021 16:21

If this is something you're interested in, I really do recommend Dr Gideon MK.

twitter.com/GidMK

He's an epidemiologist with no stake in the game beyond not being a fan of bad science, and has started objectively going through individual studies and explains (in detail) if there are issues and limitations and how this impacts the results obtained.