Double vax & got it Vs no Vax and not

[jakeyboy1]

Just need a vent really.

Firstly my elderly parents tested positive. Both double vaccinated. My brother who has been staying with them and is anti vax hasn't got it. Won't even have a PCR to check but seemingly is fine. Gives me long lecture on how the vaccine hasn't stopped them getting it, it's all a con etc etc. He is 35 and old enough to know better. I replied that no but hopefully it saves their lives etc etc he tells me I'm being dramatic.

Fast forward a few days and now DH has it. Totally unrelated he has not caught it off them and has been careful. He's double vax and immuno compromised. I will probably get it but not as yet.

All have suffered somewhat but fingers crossed not too bad and will be ok.

I'm just so cross that people who have had the vaccine are getting it but people refusing not and continue this idiotic rhetoric. And they all know an "expert" who has given them such great advice. FFS.

Double vaccinated are less likely to pass on covid when they catch it, so that may be why your brother didn't catch it from your parents. I can see why you're upset, but we will all come into contact with covid in coming years and better with fresh vaccination antibodies; it's great that all 3 have been ok even if a little bit poorly. Try not to waste energy on being angry with your brother, you know it won't get you anywhere.

Double vaccinated are less likely to pass on covid when they catch it, so that may be why your brother didn't catch it from your parents

@MRex is this the case? I thought recent evidence has shown that vaccinated people do pass on covid as much as unvaccinated people?

@MRex

Double vaccinated are less likely to pass on covid when they catch it, so that may be why your brother didn't catch it from your parents. I can see why you're upset, but we will all come into contact with covid in coming years and better with fresh vaccination antibodies; it's great that all 3 have been ok even if a little bit poorly. Try not to waste energy on being angry with your brother, you know it won't get you anywhere.

I thought it was reported this week that double jabbed doesn't reduce transmission as such, it reduces the number who get infected but the individual is just as likely to transmit.

I don't have a link as I heard it on the radio but that's what I understodd them to be saying

OP - why are you bothering to engage with your brother? Wouldn't it be much less stressful to avoid him for the time being?

@RiaRoth

Double vaccinated are less likely to pass on covid when they catch it, so that may be why your brother didn't catch it from your parents

@MRex is this the case? I thought recent evidence has shown that vaccinated people do pass on covid as much as unvaccinated people?

That'll teach me to try and find a link while typing a post, you beat me to it @RiaRoth. Glad I wasn't imagining things

Vaccines don't stop people from getting exposed to disease. When someone inhales covid particles they get viral load. Vaccinated people clear it much faster than unvaccinated; some so quickly that we would say they haven't been infected, others get some symptoms and that's where the CDC highlighted there is still an infection risk. Which there is, but for a much shorter time than unvaccinated. Here's a study from Singapore that looked at viral load in detail: www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1.

Your db may well have had covid, he simply was asymptomatic. I wasn't ill, the only reason I know I had covid was I lost my taste and smell (if he's in denial he may be ignoring minor symptoms remember)

Caughtinanet you are right, it has been reported this week that vaccinated people are just as likely to pass on covid than an unvaccinated person. I also heard it being discussed on the Radio 4 today programme by a doctor. This article in the Guardian mentions it too:
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/19/jabbed-adults-infected-with-delta-can-match-virus-levels-of-unvaccinated

No, that's not the case. There is a vast difference between "can match viral load" and "just as likely"; the information is very clear that SOME double-vaccinated have high viral load, not all, and not the same proportion as unvaccinated. Please see the study I linked @ACreakingGateNeverStops.

@MRex

No, that's not the case. There is a vast difference between "can match viral load" and "just as likely"; the information is very clear that SOME double-vaccinated have high viral load, not all, and not the same proportion as unvaccinated. Please see the study I linked *@ACreakingGateNeverStops*.

Yes, I can see what you mean. I'm just going off what the doctor said on the Today programme. But isn't it also the case that some unvaccinated people have a low viral load for what ever reason?

I seem to remember reading some time back, pre-vaccines that if you don't become very unwell with covid (or are asymptomatic) then it means you have a lower viral load.

To me much seems to be swings and roundabouts and a mish-mash of conflicting advice/research over the last 18 months!!!

I'm struggling to be engaged with the whole thing now as it seems just as you get a handle on one 'fact' another 'fact' conflicts it.

That isn't a pop at you MRex btw just how I feel.

To me much seems to be swings and roundabouts and a mish-mash of conflicting advice/research over the last 18 months!!!

Well, things have changed quite a bit over this time period and the virus itself is quite different from the 'original'. The research which showed that vaccinated people were less likely to transmit was based on infections with the alpha variant. The delta variant seems to have more immune escape than alpha which seems to be translating into more breakthrough infection and higher viral loads in vaccinated people. This may (but not definitely) translate into increased transmission.

The vaccines are still very good at preventing infection in the first place, even with delta, and if you're not infected then you can't transmit.

Yes,.there is variation in viral load, though the distinction for high viral load of PRE-symptomatic people is not always taken into account when identifying who is asymptomatic at the time of testing. It can be frustrating that information changes, but Delta viral load is 1260 times the viral load of the original Wuhan disease, so you can guess why that does change impacts and means unfortunately you just have to accept information changes that was correct at the time about old variants. It's a moving picture, but that makes it even more important not to be too loose with language and to correct any misunderstandings.

@MRex

Yes,.there is variation in viral load, though the distinction for high viral load of PRE-symptomatic people is not always taken into account when identifying who is asymptomatic at the time of testing. It can be frustrating that information changes, but Delta viral load is 1260 times the viral load of the original Wuhan disease, so you can guess why that does change impacts and means unfortunately you just have to accept information changes that was correct at the time about old variants. It's a moving picture, but that makes it even more important not to be too loose with language and to correct any misunderstandings.

"loose with language" Is that the 21st century version of 'careless talk cost lives

Discussing viral load is very interesting but where is OP?

Has she reconciled herself to the fact her vaccinated parents and husband caught covid and her unvaccinated brother apparently has not?

Where are you OP how are your parents and husband getting on, well I hope?

I'm still here! Just trying to clean everything in house and not catch it... thanks to those who understand where I'm coming from ;)

I am not sure the information on viral load is being interpreted correctly.

The initial finding (no difference is viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals) comes from the PHE Technical Briefing on Delta, however, journalists reporting on it forget one important caveat:

To note, this analysis is undertaken on case data and are not age-stratified. Findings can be influenced by test-seeking behaviour, as well as true changes in the data, for example the age distribution of cases, which can also influence Ct values.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

There are also separate studies that seem to suggest that viral load increases with age.

www.news-medical.net/news/20210119/Large-study-finds-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-is-lowest-in-children.aspx

We know that older people are much more likely to be fully vaccinated. We need to look at age stratified data to draw conclusions.

It is entirely plausible that vaccinations do in fact decrease viral load and reduce infectiousness of older vaccinated individuals down to the level of younger unvaccinated people. This would appear consistent with observational data (household members of vaccinated individuals are less likely to get infected).

@jakeyboy1

I'm still here! Just trying to clean everything in house and not catch it... thanks to those who understand where I'm coming from ;)

Good luck on not catching it.

We had norovirus in the house a few years ago and I must have cleaned constantly for about 2 weeks so I feel your cleaning pain!!!

Your brother probably has got it. We're both double vaxxed boyfriend had man flu for a few days and tested positive. I don't have any symptoms whatsoever but got a test to be safe and I'm positive and now isolating for 10 days

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

I don't understand what anti-vaxxers think they will do when they are the only ones living if the vaccines are really dangerous as they think they are.

Getting up to 80% of the UK adult population is now doubly vaccinated. So if the vaccine really is dangerous, 80% of the population will die soon, leaving only the non-vaccinated to bring up millions of ophans. There will also not be any doctors or nurses etc as they will all be dead.

So what are they going to do?

There will be no society left.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say - or how it relates to the OP and her family.

Are you saying that as everyone who has had the vaccine is going to die (unlikely, but that's another discussion entirely) the OP's brother should have the jab along with other people who haven't been vaccinated so they are not left living after everyone has died?

I'm not sure that makes sense, or am I missing something???

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

A lot of anti-vaxxers think that the vaccines are dangerous.

I am just asking what her brother thinks he is going to do when he is one of the few people left who haven't had the vaccine and everyone who has had it is dead.

I'm not sure that's relevant here as the OP hasn't said that her brother thinks everyone who has had the vaccine is going to die did she?

She just said he is anti-vax which could be (depending on what anti-vax means to you personally) on a scale from 5G, lizard people, everyone's going to die, refusing all vaccines etc to just not having the covid vaccine despite having every other vaccine known to man because you don't think it's necessary.

I must admit it does sound like you are annoyed that your brother hasn’t developed the virus with him better only one not having had any injections.
The more I hear, the more it does seem to be those who have had 2 injections that are developing the virus for some reason.
Hopefully the injections have reduced the severity but I suppose that’s something we will never really know.

The more I hear, the more it does seem to be those who have had 2 injections that are developing the virus for some reason.

It’s really not rocket science. Most of the adult population has been double vaccinated. If 100% of the population were vaccinated, 100% of covid infections would happen in vaccinated people. Vaccination doesn’t make you more likely to catch covid. You’re more likely to talk about it though!

The vaccinations have always been less effective at stopping symptomatic infection than severe illness. That doesn’t mean they’re not working.

Oh he doesn't think they are dangerous... (as far as I know) it's just all a con to make us conform and we're all stupid for having it because it's what the Tories want us to do. Probably thinks they are chipping us or something.

Oh and his mate who works in "medicine" knows lots about it and it's a placebo - mate is a HCA. And now it's "see I told you it wouldn't work" despite me pointing out the obvious that had it been a year ago things would be very different. Won't even go for a PCR because "they just make it up."

In a group of friends all with same opinion like an echo chamber and they are out every night so it will catch up with them sooner or later I'm afraid.

@jakeyboy1

Oh he doesn't think they are dangerous... (as far as I know) it's just all a con to make us conform and we're all stupid for having it because it's what the Tories want us to do. Probably thinks they are chipping us or something.

Oh and his mate who works in "medicine" knows lots about it and it's a placebo - mate is a HCA. And now it's "see I told you it wouldn't work" despite me pointing out the obvious that had it been a year ago things would be very different. Won't even go for a PCR because "they just make it up."

In a group of friends all with same opinion like an echo chamber and they are out every night so it will catch up with them sooner or later I'm afraid.

Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear that OP. I had hoped he was at the other end of the scale. That must be very stressful for you especially as he insists on discussing it so much. I don't understand why people who have a controversial opinion don't keep it to themselves. I think all sorts of things I'd never dream of sharing with anyone else!!

I know more vaccinated people that have got it than ones that haven't had it!

Can't believe you are annoyed about it - weird!