Surely this kills the idea of vaccine passports

[Nerdygirl]

So no if double jabbed can still pass it on surely vaccine passports are pointless

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-variant-can-still-be-transmitted-by-people-who-are-double-jabbed-but-protection-against-illness-and-death-is-high-12384933

Vaccine protects from serious illness according to this so that’s good but whether you are vaccinated or not doesn’t mean you can’t pass it on so you shouldn’t surely discriminate. People are free to choose what to do for their personal health and equally shouldn’t be vilified

We can't fix your age.

But we can improve your resistance, by vaccination

And we can reduce transmission.

So we should.

I have a question here. How come lots of people I know who have had the vaccine, are unwell at the moment? They were fine beforehand.

I'm not exaggerating this in anyway, it's literally ridiculous how many are really unwell from the jab.

So, if you get ill, can still spread it and become reinfected. Why a vaccine passport?

@Peteycat - I am a vaccinator. Before giving the second vaccine we ask whether they had a side effects from their first vaccine. No one I have spoken to has had more than a sore arm or a few days of tiredness,aches and pains. The same applies to our extended family who have had different vaccinations in the U.K., Canada, Belgium, France and the US.

@Peteycat

I have a question here. How come lots of people I know who have had the vaccine, are unwell at the moment? They were fine beforehand.

I'm not exaggerating this in anyway, it's literally ridiculous how many are really unwell from the jab.

So, if you get ill, can still spread it and become reinfected. Why a vaccine passport?

I came across this article, have a look - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33113270/ Results of the study: COVID-19 vaccines designed to elicit neutralising antibodies may sensitise vaccine recipients to more severe disease than if they were not vaccinated. Vaccines for SARS, MERS and RSV have never been approved, and the data generated in the development and testing of these vaccines suggest a serious mechanistic concern: that vaccines designed empirically using the traditional approach (consisting of the unmodified or minimally modified coronavirus viral spike to elicit neutralising antibodies), be they composed of protein, viral vector, DNA or RNA and irrespective of delivery method, may worsen COVID-19 disease via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). This risk is sufficiently obscured in clinical trial protocols and consent forms for ongoing COVID-19 vaccine trials that adequate patient comprehension of this risk is unlikely to occur, obviating truly informed consent by subjects in these trials.

@Wellbythebloodyhell

I am happily double vaccinated but absolutely detest the prospect of covid passports especially in domestic settings like some EU countries and US states have implemented. Where does it stop?

I totally agree. There is no need for it at all. It's based on an inconsistent premise anyway. if you don't trust that the vaccine works, there is no point forcing people to have it who don't want it. Concentrate on those who do want it, including 16-17 year olds.

I suspect the nightclub proposal will be dropped but fear that we'll have to put up with them for international travel for some time yet. However, you have to show a passport anyway so having an extra piece of paper isn't a biggie. Having to show it every time you want a coffee is.

I have briefly read that article thank you. I'm not on here for an argument. I am just genuinely puzzled about the whole situation.

Parker 231,thats great news that your family. Glad they are OK. Unfortunately that's not the case in my world of friends and family. Literally so many people. It's quite worrying really. I think we need to talk about it more openly, considering that some people are considering the jab for their children.

I feel this is an important issue, because lockdowns were imposed to protect the NHS mainly. However, if lots of people are sick from the vaccine, surely there is a chance of overwhelming the NHS again?

@PigletJohn

We can't fix your age.

But we can improve your resistance, by vaccination

And we can reduce transmission.

So we should.

Yes and most of us are vaccinated, so that problem is solved.

Those who don't want it, meh. Their problem, not mine. They will either be lucky and not get it, or get it and feel grotty, or they'll end up in hospital. You can say "well they shouldn't get hospital treatment then" but we don't refuse treatment to obese people, alcoholics, or reckless drivers.

I'm double vaxed and for me that was the right decision. I think some freedoms that have been removed for unvaccinated people are only there as a carrot to encourage people to get vaccinated. I don't like the idea of the strong coercion, especially for a new vaccine. There's lots of bullying online too for those choosing not to vaccinate. Would I prefer my kids' teachers to have it and relative's careworkers? Of course, but not if it's mandated.

I get the point that you're less likely to catch it in the first place, so that reduces transmission, but if you've got it, you can still transmit. I don't see the logic behind passports at this stage. It also seems odd that they've done nothing for the large number of people that can't be vaccinated (e.g. pupils having adequate ventilation in schools), so cases will rocket and probably send us all into bloody lockdown again anyway. The 'vaccination is our only tool' message doesn't make sense to me at this stage.

I feel this is an important issue, because lockdowns were imposed to protect the NHS mainly. However, if lots of people are sick from the vaccine, surely there is a chance of overwhelming the NHS again?

@Peteycat

The numbers of people having an adverse event from the vaccines that are serious enough to require hospitalisation are tiny. In contrast, the numbers of people requiring hospital treatment for acute COVID or long term complications from COVID are substantial.

There is literally no chance of the NHS being overwhelmed by people "sick from the vaccine"

Managing epidemics is all about reducing the r number. No single measure will stop a vaccine with an r number of 6.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, but they make it at least 50% less likely that you will catch symptomatic COVID.

I also think (maybe optimistically) that we will eventually get to herd immunity. Vaccines may not do it alone, but vaccines plus (relatively mild) infections will over a couple of years.

All in all, encouraging vaccine by whatever means cannot but be a good thing.

Stop a VIRUS with an r of 6 …

I would prefer double vaccinated to not vaccinated at all because vaccination reduces transmission

Ollyollyoxenfree, that is your opinion. You don't know that. I know what the statistics are with vaccine reactions. It's a high number.

Even if the NHS didn't get overwhelmed, surely adverse reactions in many many people makes us as a responsible society stop and look at it. Analyse the data for vaccine reactions. It's generally becoming a bigger problem every day all over the UK.

You actually don't know that there is no chance. You couldn't possibly predict that.

@Peteycat

Ollyollyoxenfree, that is your opinion. You don't know that. I know what the statistics are with vaccine reactions. It's a high number.

Even if the NHS didn't get overwhelmed, surely adverse reactions in many many people makes us as a responsible society stop and look at it. Analyse the data for vaccine reactions. It's generally becoming a bigger problem every day all over the UK.

You actually don't know that there is no chance. You couldn't possibly predict that.

No @Peteycat, it's not just my opinion, it's whats happening in the UK. There are not substantial numbers of people hospitalised due to complications from the vaccines. Very happy to look at a link if you have proof showing otherwise? What are these complications that are landing large numbers of people in hospital?

analyse the data for vaccine reactions
With all due respect you looking at numbers of reported effects/deaths via the yellow card scheme is not "analysing data".

These are events that have occurred after vaccination, not events that are automatically due to vaccination. If no-one died (or miscarried, or was in a car crash) after being vaccinated, it would mean it was somehow protective against death (or miscarriage, or car crashes), which is clearly not the case. This schemes are used to work out if these events are occurring at rates higher than in the general population and therefore might be causal.

@Peteycat,

I have seen @ollyollyoxenfree’s contributions on a few of these threads,

She or he clearly knows of what they speak. Unless you have a strong grasp of medicine and statistics, I would read and learn (I do, despite a science degree).

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Stop a VIRUS with an r of 6 …

That's not strictly true. Measles has an r0 of about 18 but is pretty rare in the UK due to vaccination - you just need a good enough vaccine and a high enough uptake to get to that point. Currently I'm not sure the covid vaccine effectiveness is high enough, and even if it was we'd need to vaccinate children to get the population coverage. There is also the issue that covid immunity seems to wane, whereas measles immunity is pretty much for life.

@Peteycat

Ollyollyoxenfree, that is your opinion. You don't know that. I know what the statistics are with vaccine reactions. It's a high number.

Even if the NHS didn't get overwhelmed, surely adverse reactions in many many people makes us as a responsible society stop and look at it. Analyse the data for vaccine reactions. It's generally becoming a bigger problem every day all over the UK.

You actually don't know that there is no chance. You couldn't possibly predict that.

@FlagsFiend,

My point about not eliminating it via vaccine alone was specific to COVID, where vaccines will just never get us to the 84% or so immunity required. COVID mutates too fast.

Measles is super infectious but does not really mutate (thankfully). With any meaningful mutation, measles surface protein cannot enter our cells.

I totally appreciate what you are saying, BTW I'm only responding to reasonable people on this post. Not people who use emojis to communicate like a 14 year old. I'm not a scientist no, I'm actually not that academic,but I have reasonable common sense and look and listen and read what's in front of me.

I get what you are saying about the yellow card scheme, yes I'm sure some of those things would have occurred anyway. However there are now in my opinion too many to ignore.

Chris Whitty has just this on Twitter.

The great majority of adults have been vaccinated.

Four weeks working on a COVID ward makes stark the reality that the majority of our hospitalised COVID patients are unvaccinated and regret delaying. Some are very sick including young adults.

Please don't delay your vaccine.

It would be good to see the exact percentage of vaccinated/unvaccinated people in hospital - broken down by age .

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Peteycat,

I have seen @ollyollyoxenfree’s contributions on a few of these threads,

She or he clearly knows of what they speak. Unless you have a strong grasp of medicine and statistics, I would read and learn (I do, despite a science degree).[/quote]
Thank you @TheReluctantPhoenix!! Right back at you :)

@bumbleymummy,

'It would be good to see the exact percentage of vaccinated/unvaccinated people in hospital - broken down by age .'

Yes I agree with that, and I cannot find it either.

However, the below is interesting. It shows the hospital admissions broken down by age as a percentage of the previous peak. It is a powerful indication of how protective vaccines are.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals#hospital-admissions-by-age

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@bumbleymummy,

'It would be good to see the exact percentage of vaccinated/unvaccinated people in hospital - broken down by age .'

Yes I agree with that, and I cannot find it either.

However, the below is interesting. It shows the hospital admissions broken down by age as a percentage of the previous peak. It is a powerful indication of how protective vaccines are.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals#hospital-admissions-by-age[/quote]
That's a really interesting link, thank you but if you scroll down below the graphs at the top to the coloured bar charts below, doesn't it show that older people while less like to catch covid are still more likely to be admitted to hospital and die than younger age groups, or am I misunderstanding those charts.

That's pretty rubbish for older people !!!

Ps I'd also really like to see a breakdown of vaccinated/unvaccinated people in hospital broken down by age too!!