Surely this kills the idea of vaccine passports

[Nerdygirl]

So no if double jabbed can still pass it on surely vaccine passports are pointless

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-variant-can-still-be-transmitted-by-people-who-are-double-jabbed-but-protection-against-illness-and-death-is-high-12384933

Vaccine protects from serious illness according to this so that’s good but whether you are vaccinated or not doesn’t mean you can’t pass it on so you shouldn’t surely discriminate. People are free to choose what to do for their personal health and equally shouldn’t be vilified

@bumbleymummy

it's simply a public health measure that, on a population level, would reduce transmission.

Not sure how you can argue that exempting people from testing/quarantine/isolation when they are still capable of contracting and transmitting the virus will actually reduce transmission tbh.

but how about having stricter rules for people who are more likely to become infected, and more likely and spread infection (such as the unvaccinated)

and less strict rules for people who are less likely to become infected, and less likely to spread infection (such as the vaccinated).

I suppose, to make that work, you'd need some way of identifying which group people fell in. Can you think of a way?

[quote bumbleymummy]@sleepwouldbenice I don’t really care what other people have said. I’m not against vaccination but I’m very against vaccine passports and I will argue about anyone being treated differently based on their vaccine status.[/quote]
For goodness sake

You keep posting about infectious diseases not being a big deal and downplaying the necessity of vaccination

For multiple infectious diseases - polio, HPV, rubella etc - not just coronavirus

No-one is suggestion people should be treated differently for the sake of it or as some kind nasty persecution, it's simply that we're in the middle of a pandemic, and that mitigations are required in order to supress transmission. A group of vaccination people will pass coronavirus on less than unvaccinated. There are various other measures we can take to try and reduce transmission, as an alternative for those who don't want to be vaccinated.

so many typos but you get the gist, it's late and so frustrating to see the same posts recycled again and again

@PigletJohn why? If you want to keep transmission at its minimum then you should keep testing everyone and not exempt people who can still contract and spread the virus.

mitigations are required in order to supress transmission.

Yep. Which is why we shouldn’t be exempting people from testing/isolation etc.

Yes, it’s a bit tiring when you recycle those ‘anti-vaxx’ accusation posts again and again. Just because you repeat it lots doesn’t make it true :)

[quote bumbleymummy]@PigletJohn why? If you want to keep transmission at its minimum then you should keep testing everyone and not exempt people who can still contract and spread the virus.

mitigations are required in order to supress transmission.

Yep. Which is why we shouldn’t be exempting people from testing/isolation etc.

Yes, it’s a bit tiring when you recycle those ‘anti-vaxx’ accusation posts again and again. Just because you repeat it lots doesn’t make it true :)[/quote]
No one has said "anti-vaxx" except yourself, you keep bringing it up. Don't think I've ever had this conversation with you so not sure why you're saying I'm repeating it.

You have a 10 year posting history of minimising the impact of infectious disease and downplaying the necessity of vaccination - these are accusations, it's all there on MN.

Clearly this colours your opinion regarding the current pandemic and it makes it a lot harder to take your posts seriously as you clearly have very entrenched long-term views on vaccination.

Ignoring all of that, and just going by your posts in the last couple of months, you've jumped on any argument you can that mass vaccination isn't necessary and coronavirus isn't a big deal

Vaccinated people can still pass it on, yes. But they're also far far less likely to catch it in the first place.

Therefore requiring vaccination greatly reduces the chance that someone has it (especially if you also then require tests, which they do), as well as providing extra incentive to the wider population to also get vaccinated, further reducing spread as well as serious illness.

these aren't accusations - it's all there on MN

too late for me

@bumbleymummy

you recycle those ‘anti-vaxx’ accusation posts

untrue.

No one has said "anti-vaxx" except yourself, you keep bringing it up.

Oh good. I’m glad you accept that I’m not actually against vaccination. :) You have a very short memory. You were accusing me of the same sort of thing about a week ago.

you've jumped on any argument you can that mass vaccination isn't necessary and coronavirus isn't a big deal

Nope. Wrong again. Actually posted on a thread today saying that it is a big deal and vaccination is very important :)

Yes, they’re less likely to contract it but if you’re trying to minimise transmission you don’t exempt people from testing and isolation when they could be carrying/transmitting it.

@bumbleymummy if you’re trying to minimise transmission you don’t exempt people from testing and isolation when they could be carrying/transmitting it.

what makes you suggest that as a course of action?

Suggest what? Exempting people from testing/isolation? I’m not suggesting it. It’s what the vaccine passports currently permit.

@bumbleymummy

No one has said "anti-vaxx" except yourself, you keep bringing it up.

Oh good. I’m glad you accept that I’m not actually against vaccination. :) You have a very short memory. You were accusing me of the same sort of thing about a week ago.

you've jumped on any argument you can that mass vaccination isn't necessary and coronavirus isn't a big deal

Nope. Wrong again. Actually posted on a thread today saying that it is a big deal and vaccination is very important :)

Yes, they’re less likely to contract it but if you’re trying to minimise transmission you don’t exempt people from testing and isolation when they could be carrying/transmitting it.

No I haven't

It is rather telling if multiple posters are pointing out you have a long history of minimising the impact of infectious disease and downplaying the necessity of vaccination on here though

Not really. It just means they’re not particularly good at reading what is actually being written rather than what they think is being written. You’re clearly guilty of it yourself :) As I’ve just pointed out, I literally wrote a post today (well, yesterday now) saying that COVID was a very nasty virus that had killed lots of people and that the vaccines were very much necessary. That’s not exactly ‘minimising the impact of infectious disease and downplaying the necessity of vaccination’ now is it?

Anyway, as you said, it’s late and it’s pretty boring and repetitive having to defend myself against silly accusations.

To get us back on track - vaccine passports are pointless and should go ASAP. :)

@bumbleymummy

Suggest what? Exempting people from testing/isolation? I’m not suggesting it. It’s what the vaccine passports currently permit.

They don't exempt you from testing. I'm currently in Southern Europe and when I return I will need to provide two negative tests. That's fine, as it means that because I'm fully vaccinated I don’t need to spend time in a quarantine "hotel". It's worth it to me to be able to travel and visit family.

@bumbleymummy

Not really. It just means they’re not particularly good at reading what is actually being written rather than what they think is being written. You’re clearly guilty of it yourself :) As I’ve just pointed out, I literally wrote a post today (well, yesterday now) saying that COVID was a very nasty virus that had killed lots of people and that the vaccines were very much necessary. That’s not exactly ‘minimising the impact of infectious disease and downplaying the necessity of vaccination’ now is it?

Anyway, as you said, it’s late and it’s pretty boring and repetitive having to defend myself against silly accusations.

To get us back on track - vaccine passports are pointless and should go ASAP. :)

As I have said (only on this thread mind), you have a long posting history of minimising the impact of infectious disease (polio, rubella, HPV, 'flu, measles etc etc etc) and downplaying how vital vaccination programmes are as a public measure. These aren't "accusations", it's just stating facts from your posting history.

I don't think it's particularly silly either given the current situation and the importance of people being able to make an informed choice regarding vaccination, and not getting sucked into reams of misinformation.

You're quoting one post you've made on coronavirus yesterday, I haven't personally seen it, but I have seen many of the others you've made during the last 18 months.

@bumbleymummy
Just because you repeat it lots doesn’t make it true

Well, you said it.

@NetballHoop if they’re in close contact with a positive case they don’t have to test. It’s advised but not compulsory.

That’s fine @ollyollyoxenfree. You think what you want. your opinion doesn’t really matter to me. :) Yes, I agree that it’s important not to get sucked into misinformation.

That and the fact the something like 90% of people in ICU from covid are unvaccinated

Last week in Ireland 42% of the people hospitalised with covid were double vaccinated. 58% were unvaccinated or had a single dose.

Considering Ireland now has 84% of its adult population fully vaccinated and over 90% have had at least one vaccination and we are currently vaccinating 12-15 year olds, and our daily infection figures are almost as high as they were six months ago, it isn't looking like covid passports are really necessary. Sadly.

@Dancingonmoonlight

That and the fact the something like 90% of people in ICU from covid are unvaccinated

Last week in Ireland 42% of the people hospitalised with covid were double vaccinated. 58% were unvaccinated or had a single dose.

Considering Ireland now has 84% of its adult population fully vaccinated and over 90% have had at least one vaccination and we are currently vaccinating 12-15 year olds, and our daily infection figures are almost as high as they were six months ago, it isn't looking like covid passports are really necessary. Sadly.

I disagree with vaccine passports although I am very pro-vaccination in general. However your post definitely doesn't show that vaccine passports are unnecessary, it shows that vaccines are working, just not completely.

From your information:
Ireland has 84% fully vaccinated. If they had given out vaccines randomly and they didn't work you'd expect 84% of hospitalisations to be fully vaccinated, but only 42% are.

However I doubt they gave them out randomly, they probably started with those more likely to be hospitalised (older, vulnerable, etc), so you expect the proportion in hospital from this population to be even higher, but it isn't.

This means the vaccines are working, you can't tell from these statistics if it is preventing these people being infected or making them less ill. Regardless it is preventing hospitalisations in the vaccinated and reducing pressure on the health service.

It will be interesting to see how long they're valid for since we don't even know how long the effects of the vaccine last, but we do know the protection they provide seems to decline fairly quickly, and their efficacy depends on the prevalent variants.
As far as I understand only the vulnerable will be getting boosters so we can assume most people won't have any sort of lasting immunity much past 12 months max. So all these passports could well be invalid this time next year.

www.businessinsider.com/iceland-proves-covid-19-vaccines-work-expert-no-death-may-2021-8

Good information from Iceland about the effectiveness of the vaccine. Iceland being one of the countries with the highest level of vaccination.

@Aposterhasnoname

Sigh. If you catch covid and are unvaccinated you have a higher chance of being seriously ill and needing hospital treatment. When transmission is high, we need to limit the number of people getting seriously ill, to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed. We can’t keep locking down, therefore restricting unvaccinated peoples access to crowded places where the virus could spread is a option. Why, after 18 months, do people not understand this simple concept?

WHY is it that hospitals have not, 18months after all this, had massive investment to make them fit for purpose?

Except for the huge White Elephants of the Nightingales (not staffed, not plumbed in, not fit for purpose and most dismantled having never been used)
This gov, 18 months ago, having just been voted in, were looking at privatising/selling off the NHS. This pandemic has been a absolute boon for this. 'Don't invest in the NHS, just put the responsiblity for its future on US - Stay Safe, Protect the NHS (ie, dont use it unless you absolutely have to, you selfish bastards) Have a Clap on Thursdays. Don't expect a pay rise FGS.'

I work in a private clinic (open throughout this!) and our numbers have probably trebled. Our client base is wealthy older people and those with health insurance - they couldn't get to see a Gp, no one wanted to go into hospital: they came to us.

And that works really well for the Tories - get everyone that can, into Private Health. Leave our old, crumbling and lumbering NHS to the poorer people and it will eventually die.

Job done, Boris.

Sigh. If you catch covid and are unvaccinated you have a higher chance of being seriously ill and needing hospital treatment.

That's not not true though is it. A vaccinated 80 year old is far more likely to need hospital treatment than an unvaccinated 20 year old. Since most unvaccinated are young and healthy it really is the vaccinated vulnerable and elderly who are far more likely to become seriously ill or die. That is partly down to the fact that they often require hospital treatment for other ailments and end up catching covid in hospital, as has been the case throughout the pandemic. The average age of death from covid is still 85+.

@salooone

But of course a vaccinated 80 year old is far LESS likely to need hospital treatment than an unvaccinated 80 year old

And a vaccinated 20 year old is far LESS likely to need hospital treatment than an unvaccinated 20 year old

Well yes but age is by far the biggest risk factor and unless unable to almost all 80 years will be vaccinated. Very few healthy 20 year olds will need hospital treatment for covid, vaccinated or not.