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Vaccine in 12-16 year olds?

272 replies

beckypv · 17/08/2021 11:31

I’m trying to work understand the real reason why 12-16 aren’t currently being offered the vaccine. I know they have said that it is because they are still weighing up the personal risk benefit to the child. Is that actually true? or is it because they are not yet in a position logistically to role it out fully to this age group, or they are actually thinking globally in terms of diverting vaccine resources to the rest of the world?
I ask this because my 12 year old son falls into the general ‘vulnerable category’ because he is on multiple immunosuppressant drugs and will be offered the vaccine soon. We have been told over the last year that JIA kids are no more vulnerable to Covid than other kids, therefore I am concerned he has been put in the vulnerable catagory under a wide sweeping brush and that actually it is no more appropriate for him to have the covid vaccine than other children.
So basically, we want to make to correct decision for him so am trying to understand the science behind not vaccinating children versus the political message.
Hope that makes sense 😀

OP posts:
OnTheBrink1 · 17/08/2021 14:46

@EarringsandLipstick but that’s exactly what I mean.
You have put your children at risk (a small one but still an increased risk) purely for the benefit of wider society. Children that are not old enough to make that decision for themselves. You have decided that risk for them. Assuming they are not vulnerable, their risk from harm from the vaccine is greater than from covid. No long term effects are known in adults yet let alone developing children.

Foliageeverywhere122 · 17/08/2021 14:49

[quote OnTheBrink1]@EarringsandLipstick but that’s exactly what I mean.
You have put your children at risk (a small one but still an increased risk) purely for the benefit of wider society. Children that are not old enough to make that decision for themselves. You have decided that risk for them. Assuming they are not vulnerable, their risk from harm from the vaccine is greater than from covid. No long term effects are known in adults yet let alone developing children.[/quote]
That is not the reason the majority of other Western countries are offering it to the age group - they agree with the evidence that the risks outweight the benefits.

England is anomaly which is odd considering it's attitude to vaccination the fact we have high case levels.

Foliageeverywhere122 · 17/08/2021 14:49

agh - they agree with the evidence that the benefits outweigh the risks

there we are Grin

EarringsandLipstick · 17/08/2021 14:55

[quote OnTheBrink1]@EarringsandLipstick but that’s exactly what I mean.
You have put your children at risk (a small one but still an increased risk) purely for the benefit of wider society. Children that are not old enough to make that decision for themselves. You have decided that risk for them. Assuming they are not vulnerable, their risk from harm from the vaccine is greater than from covid. No long term effects are known in adults yet let alone developing children.[/quote]
Yes. That's how vaccines work 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's my job as their parent to make the final choice for them, though I discussed it with them both & they were happy to do it.

It's not purely selfless. It will make their lives easier, reducing risks of self-isolation (though Ireland has managed thus far better than most of the UK - while accepting there's a massive population differential - and there's barely been any self-isolation / bubble-bursting incidents), that they've to miss activities etc.

The risks are negligible. I highly doubt they'll be affected by an allergic reaction, and while the myocarditis sounds worrying, it's again a tiny percentage, and in most cases, goes away of its own accord, no intervention required.

The long-term effects we don't know, obviously. Same for adults. However, the science tells me that there are really unlikely to be any significant issues, why would there be? The mRNA vaccines create a spike protein that allows the immune response to develop. It's hard to see what issue there will be, and I'm happy to accept that risk for me, and my children.

It's too glib to say 'worried about risks' without at least drilling down into the best available evidence & asking - is this really an issue? What are the likely risks & how pertinent is that for my child?

OnTheBrink1 · 17/08/2021 15:05

@Foliageeverywhere122 I don’t know the reasons they are offering it. However I don’t live in one of those countries.
I have no problem essentially with ‘let those who want to get their kids vaxxed, get them vaxxed’ the problem is that

  1. Kids who are too young to weigh up the current and future risks and potential risks.
  2. No long term data on adults let alone kids
  3. Once kids are approved, vaxx passports for kids meaning that you won’t be able to take any children abroad who haven’t been vaxxed. Which essentially means no choice because at some point the vast majority of kids are going to want to leave the UK be it for family, holiday or school
Trip. It won’t be a choice and I will feel very forced to put my child at risk from a vaccine which the risks are not clear yet. No one can pretend all the risks to kids from this vaxx are safe. Lots of data to show that the risks from kids getting covid is very very low.
EarringsandLipstick · 17/08/2021 15:10

Lots of data to show that the risks from kids getting covid is very very low.

But the volume of Delta cases in teenagers has risen really sharply. They then transmit that to other vulnerable people.

Vaccinate 12 - 15 yo and risk reduces.

Foliageeverywhere122 · 17/08/2021 15:11

[quote OnTheBrink1]@Foliageeverywhere122 I don’t know the reasons they are offering it. However I don’t live in one of those countries.
I have no problem essentially with ‘let those who want to get their kids vaxxed, get them vaxxed’ the problem is that

  1. Kids who are too young to weigh up the current and future risks and potential risks.
  2. No long term data on adults let alone kids
  3. Once kids are approved, vaxx passports for kids meaning that you won’t be able to take any children abroad who haven’t been vaxxed. Which essentially means no choice because at some point the vast majority of kids are going to want to leave the UK be it for family, holiday or school
Trip. It won’t be a choice and I will feel very forced to put my child at risk from a vaccine which the risks are not clear yet. No one can pretend all the risks to kids from this vaxx are safe. Lots of data to show that the risks from kids getting covid is very very low.[/quote] @OnTheBrink1

Are you not curious to understand why England is going against the MHRA guidance on this? And why the majority of other Western countries are offering vaccination to this age group? This does suggest is not a decision purely taken the best scientific evidence.

I find the "long term data" argument a little redundant when we were in the same situation with coronavirus infection, and that there is a great deal of epidemiological evidence demonstrating long term (and late emerging) side effects from viral infection, and not for vaccines.

You say "lots of data to show the risks are very low", but paradoxically state we don't have this for the vaccine. Incidentally, there is emerging evidence linking infection to type 1 diabetes mellitus in kids, something that needs to be taken seriously and has an established mechanism of action.

EarringsandLipstick · 17/08/2021 15:11

Kids who are too young to weigh up the current and future risks and potential risks.

This is true of all vaccines, and we don't wring our hands and worry. We, as parents, make decisions in the best interests of our children.

EarringsandLipstick · 17/08/2021 15:12

Once kids are approved, vaxx passports for kids

No indication of this in Ireland. The publicity & promotion surrounding vaccines for children is clear it's entirely the choice of the parent, and parents are free to wait.

No issue about vaccine passports at all.

Nappyvalley15 · 17/08/2021 15:53

To some extent each country weighs up the decision based on how the pandemic has played out in their country and the preexisting attitudes to vaccines and the weaknesses if its own health systems. We have had very high levels of community transmission compared to places like Ireland and Switzerland and many of our children will already have had CV. We had high levels of vaccine take up compared to France and the US so didn't need children to take vaccines to make up for a shortfall in adults being vaccinated.

Plus now we know more about breakthrough infections in the vaccinated the argument about vaccinating children to protect vulnerable adults is weaker.

We also had the whole AZ debacle in the UK so our government cannot afford any bad news with vaccines and are right to be cautious.

AllTheSingleLadiess · 17/08/2021 15:58

I think children like yours should have been offered it 3 weeks before school returns.
My area is currently doing second jabs for 18 year olds and first jabs for 16/17 year olds so must surely be reaching the end soon (before the autumn 3rd boosters)

SecretKeeper1 · 17/08/2021 16:52

@EarringsandLipstick

Kids who are too young to weigh up the current and future risks and potential risks.

This is true of all vaccines, and we don't wring our hands and worry. We, as parents, make decisions in the best interests of our children.

What, you didn’t ask your toddler how their MMR risk assessment went? Confused
GoodnightGrandma · 17/08/2021 16:58

I personally think it’s to do with stock. I think 12-16 will be next after 16-18 , but before the winter booster.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/08/2021 16:59

Why can’t they just come out and be honest about supply then. Instead of making us look like the weirdos of the Western world.

halcyondays · 17/08/2021 17:09

Probably because Boris would be forced to admit that his “world beating” vaccine programme wasn’t so world beating after all.

Oblomov21 · 17/08/2021 18:09

Where are they offering 12-16 year olds? Not here! Can't even get 17 year olds done in Surrey!

Foliageeverywhere122 · 17/08/2021 18:16

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Why can’t they just come out and be honest about supply then. Instead of making us look like the weirdos of the Western world.
Also this is something that gives me an irrational amount of rage

Like the 8 week gap which is being hailed by the UK government making a superb decision (by the UK government)

It was a sensible decision back then based on getting as many people with 1 dose in them as possible, but was a happy coincidence that it looks like it may actually improve efficacy

OnTheBrink1 · 17/08/2021 18:23

@SecretKeeper1 no, because

  1. The infections MMR prevent have a much higher risk to children than covid has.
  2. The MMR has been around a long time- enough for long term data.
Totally different and the risks either way are much clearer
OnTheBrink1 · 17/08/2021 18:26

@Nappyvalley15

To some extent each country weighs up the decision based on how the pandemic has played out in their country and the preexisting attitudes to vaccines and the weaknesses if its own health systems. We have had very high levels of community transmission compared to places like Ireland and Switzerland and many of our children will already have had CV. We had high levels of vaccine take up compared to France and the US so didn't need children to take vaccines to make up for a shortfall in adults being vaccinated.

Plus now we know more about breakthrough infections in the vaccinated the argument about vaccinating children to protect vulnerable adults is weaker.

We also had the whole AZ debacle in the UK so our government cannot afford any bad news with vaccines and are right to be cautious.

This. There is a risk to vaccinating your child with a new emergency use vax. That risk is weighed up not only against individual risk, but against the county’s risk too. At the moment it has been decided that the risk of vaccinating children may me more than the risk of not. In England. Specific to our circumstance in England, right now. Why anyone would want to get their healthy kid vaccinated when this is the case baffles me.
OnTheBrink1 · 17/08/2021 18:27

@EarringsandLipstick

Once kids are approved, vaxx passports for kids

No indication of this in Ireland. The publicity & promotion surrounding vaccines for children is clear it's entirely the choice of the parent, and parents are free to wait.

No issue about vaccine passports at all.

Not yet. It’s most likely coming.
halcyondays · 17/08/2021 18:34

There are risks to your child from catching Covid, the scientists are quite clear that the benefits outweigh the risks of the jab. It baffles me why a parent would want to deny their child a safe and effective vaccine.

Re needing a jab to visit other countries, this would be down to them, not our government. Nobody over 12 can visit Malta unless they've had their jab.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 17/08/2021 18:34

At the moment it has been decided that the risk of
vaccinating children may me more than the risk of not. In
England. Specific to our circumstance in England, right now

Yeah that’s a load of shite. Even from the government it’s still a load of crap. Why not let parents decide?Gonna be fab in September/October in schools🙄

Lougle · 17/08/2021 18:41

DD1 (SN, goes to special school, being assessed for autism, has a brain malformation, etc.) is 15 and is getting vaccinated on Thursday.

EarringsandLipstick · 17/08/2021 18:52

Not yet. It’s most likely coming.

It's not. Not in Ireland, at least. (The Covid passport for kids). I wish you'd stop spouting unsubstantiated nonsense.

Foliageeverywhere122 · 17/08/2021 18:55

Why anyone would want to get their healthy kid vaccinated when this is the case baffles me.

This is an argument that's been spouted about all vaccines for decades tbh.

The evidence demonstrates the benefits outweigh the risks, and england is the anomaly in making this decision. Saying that it's a decision made specifically for the context of our situation makes no sense when we have high numbers of cases and kids are going back to school soon.