Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

@1984ishere

Presumably you can see the difference between posts where someone doesn't want to have the vaccine (fair enough) and posts where someone is saying they're not having the vaccine, accompanied by misinformation regarding efficacy, safety or just generally downplaying the seriousness of COVID

@bumbleymummy is a long term poster, yes, who has consistently posted minimising the impact of infectious disease in society (not just coronavirus) and downplaying the necessity of vaccination for public health. This is something that predates the pandemic, and so slightly alters how reliable or non-biased these posts can be considered to be.

@1984ishere surely you can seen from the hundreds of posts currently available from people not wanting to have the vaccine that what you're saying isn't true.

I have reported things that have not been removed (generally regarding vaccine safety - particularly with the claims it causes miscarriage), and have had responses from MNHQ that it is better to engage with the poster instead.

@leafyygreens right… WHO, PHE, HIQA, ONS are clearly ‘unreliable’ and ‘biased’ sources of information

[quote bumbleymummy]@leafyygreens right… WHO, PHE, HIQA, ONS are clearly ‘unreliable’ and ‘biased’ sources of information [/quote]
As I have said multiple times, it is not the sources of data you link that are biased and unreliable, it is your interpretation of them.

The bodies you mention do not agree with the views you continually push on here.

I usually quote from them directly tbh. In the case of the hiqa document the ‘view’ that I was ‘pushing’ was that infection results in durable immunity and you still argued with me about it for pages.

If any of you are interested in the latest research on anything to do with SARS-COV-2 immunity (natural and vaccine-induced) then please follow Prof Shane Crotty on Twitter (La Jolla Institute of Immunology). He has links to many excellent articles that show the very latest research.

This is a link to his thread on the very latest in understanding natural immunity to the virus:

twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1399803472615120898

I had my first jab nearly two weeks ago. It should be personal choice in my view And as we have yet again had vile comments about how people who havent had the vaccine shouldnt be treated by the NHS its time for me to wheel this out again...........

The right talk about the deserving/non deserving poor and the left talk about the deserving/ non deserving NHS patient. Quite a disturbing parallel.

@bumbleymummy @TheVanguardSix It seems to be the one job where you can get away with slagging ppl off. They are untouchable.

If i had called my customers dumb ( or intimated as such) like here.....twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1416906610652364803?s=20

I would have found myself at the Job Centre. But with the NHS it seems to be operating (pardon the pun) under different rules.

twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1416906610652364803?s=20

People with smoking/obesity related illness, generally, do not end up on Intensive Care Wards. Their lifestyle impacts on themselves. They do not close wards to others. They pose no risk to me or anyone else. Why is that so hard to understand

There we have it. From the horses mouth. If you have turned to comfort consumption due to lockdowns you are acceptable collateral damage.

*I would have found myself at the Job Centre had i slagged off customers like that in any of the jobs ive had in the past.

We live as a society

Do we?!
www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/affordable-housing-residents-at-sky-pool-development-locked-out-of-basic-facilities-71927

@MercyBooth I agree with your analogy about undeserving patients being the left-wing equivalent of the right's undeserving poor. They're both equally immoral of course, in a manner that transcends politics of any persuasion.
I'm on the left. But freely admit there can be considerable hypocrisy from some of my fellow lefties. I thought that after the Brexit vote. I voted Remain, but honestly cringed at some of the things some remainers (not me!) said about Leave voters. I even heard people saying that you shouldn't be allowed to vote unless you had a certain intelligence level which is pure unadulterated fascism! As well as conceited, to suggest their own intelligence was superior (an impossible thing to measure) as well as missing the point that being kind is much more important than being clever.
Funnily enough, going back to the whole left-wing/right-wing thing; I've seen people say vaccine hesitant people are more likely to be far right. I haven't been vaccinated yet, for aforementioned reasons, and I'm a Green Party voter!
The vaccine issue, as with all of life, is complex, nuanced and not clearly defined.
Loved your post. I must remember that quote

People with smoking/obesity related illness, generally, do not end up on Intensive Care Wards. Their lifestyle impacts on themselves. They do not close wards to others. They pose no risk to me or anyone else. Why is that so hard to understand

I must comment on this, because it's just so short-sighted and wrong!

Obesity and smoking cause illnesses that do impact on the NHS and on other people. Sure, they may not cause a mass rush on the NHS, instead they are part of a steady stream of health conditions that take up a lot of GP's time and also fill up beds in hospitals. If you are living with a smoker, you will be harmed by passive smoking. If you are living with someone obese or a smoker, you may be impacted by needing to care for them at some point as they go on to develop related illnesses (lung and other cancers in smokers, diabetes, heart disease in the obese - just to name a few).

Plus, these are preventable diseases if only people would stop smoking (difficult I know) and get their weight under control (again I know this is difficult and overweight can be related to an underactive thyroid so that makes it even harder).

I expect if you added up all the hours taken up by medics having to deal with smoking and obesity-related illnesses then it would far exceed anything coronavirus has caused to date, and that includes deaths.

OP please watch this documentary on long covid. It's not just about selfishness, or dying. Long Covid is now affecting a million people -including children- in the UK. The resources needed to care for them, and the time lost for Woking and schooling is shocking.

Vaccines prevent this.

It also covers how some prominent denier doctors are now suspended, and shows some reluctant people hearing both sides of the story.

Please watch. Panorama, Long Covid: Will I Ever Get Better?: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000xwjg via @bbciplayer

Vaccines prevent this.

Long COVID can still occur in vaccinated people. Iirc some studies have shown that it can reduce, but not completely prevent, the risk. It’s still being studied.

smoking cause illnesses that do impact on the NHS and on other people.

Yes smokers do impact on the NHS. Positively. Their taxes paid for not only their own treatment but for others too.

If you will be harmed by passive smoking.

If you walk down a road with cars, you will be harmed by passive car fumes.

Smoking saves the economy money (unlike Covid, which costs it hugely). Taxes paid in (loadsa money) + lower pension and care home costs.

lung and other cancers in smokers
Lung cancer cases in non smokers are increasing.

diabetes, heart disease

A major contributing cause is stress. Very often linked to poverty and poor housing.

Chronic and extreme stress and trauma increase inflammation. Which links to type 2 diabetes, heart disease (and obesity). Also type 2 diabetes is strongly genetic.

Homelessness and bad/insecure housing is a major public health crisis way bigger and more deadly (and more costly to the public purse) than smoking. Unlike smoking (am example of Boris's much loved personal responsibility freedom), homelessness and poor housing is not a choice.

if you added up all the hours taken up by medics having to deal with smoking and obesity-related illnesses

Medics haven't died or ended up disabled by dealing with smokers or obese patients.

But yes. Let's do something about obesity. Deal with the major causes. Poverty, the housing crisis, poor mental health, stress, and delayed physical health diagnoses (that leave patients with mobility and/or pain issues making exercise difficult).

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/04/obesity-putting-strain-on-nhs-as-weight-related-admissions-rise

“ Smoking-related illness puts a considerable strain on NHS resources. In 2015-16 there were 474,000 hospital admissions and 79,000 deaths caused by smoking.
It is estimated that smoking has cost the NHS in England £2.6 billion per year.”

www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2020-10/Smoking%20Cessation%20toolkit_v1.docx

It is estimated that smoking has cost the NHS in England £2.6 billion per year.”

And pays in more than that in taxes. Add lower pension and care home costs - and smoking is a net gain to the economy.

Cost to the NHS? You need to look at the public health emergency that is homelessness and insecure housing. A major leading cause of many avoidable premature deaths and serious health problems (that cost the NHS).

Of course the housing crisis goes way beyond the NHS when it comes to financial burden on the public purse. Billions alone in housing homeless families and vulnerable individuals in temporary accommodation. Then there's the associated costs of the knock on impact - social services, criminal justice system, mental health care.

Source for the billions that smoking contributes in taxes please?

“Add lower pension and care home costs”

Are you actually promoting smoking because it ‘kills people off’ quicker here?

“ Homeless people are heavy users of acute NHS services; the latest data indicates that the number of A&E visits and hospital admissions per homeless person is four times higher than for the general public. This is estimated to cost a minimum of £85m per year.”

So nowhere near the 2.6 billion that smoking is estimated to cost.

www.homeless.org.uk/our-work/campaigns/policy-and-lobbying-priorities/homelessness-and-health-campaign

@MercyBooth

I had my first jab nearly two weeks ago. It should be personal choice in my view And as we have yet again had vile comments about how people who havent had the vaccine shouldnt be treated by the NHS its time for me to wheel this out again...........

The right talk about the deserving/non deserving poor and the left talk about the deserving/ non deserving NHS patient. Quite a disturbing parallel.

Where do you get that it's a left wing issue? The people I saw saying vile things didn't show any of the hallmarks of progressive left wing thinking but instead all the signs of aggressive right wing disregard for other human beings. How do you get that the left, who generally advocate for healthcare for all, have suddenly turned into individual rights and responsibility above all and user pays? It doesn't make any sense.