It’s a disgrace pupils in Scotland must continue with this farce

[Igorussia]

Mask wearing, social distancing. It affects their learning, interaction and it’s gone on for long enough. Enough is enough. It was highlighted that masks are useless against the delta variant unless N95 masks. My children will be exempt from now on. This has been going on for far too long and one of my children has become very badly affected mentally by lockdown. Fuck this.

@neveradullmoment99 Tell that to my friends, their parents, who are now dealing with the fallout: plummeting GCSE grades, withdrawn and silent all day at school, no longer interacting meaningfully with friends…

Such dismissal says a lot for your attitude towards the younger generation and mental health issues in general. I suppose they’re ‘snowflakes’ as well, and we should all be more like the WW2 generation who were so much stronger, more stoical and generally morally superior (repeat trite WW2 analogies ad nauseum)

God forbid they ever have to deal with things such as famine or drought or poverty. Honestly pathetic.
Not sure why people post about children like this.

Even adults have found parts of pandemic hard. But they get a voice, children need to buck up or be called pathetic. Sad to be so scathing.

But given that the teaching unions are very evidently not advocating for children
Where do you get this stuff from? What are the unions asking for that is going against the needs of children?

@MarshaBradyo

God forbid they ever have to deal with things such as famine or drought or poverty. Honestly pathetic. Not sure why people post about children like this.

Even adults have found parts of pandemic hard. But they get a voice, children need to buck up or be called pathetic. Sad to be so scathing.

I hope the person that posted the bold bit doesn't work anywhere near children. How sad that an adult is so vile towards children.

[quote TempsPerdu]@neveradullmoment99 Tell that to my friends, their parents, who are now dealing with the fallout: plummeting GCSE grades, withdrawn and silent all day at school, no longer interacting meaningfully with friends…

Such dismissal says a lot for your attitude towards the younger generation and mental health issues in general. I suppose they’re ‘snowflakes’ as well, and we should all be more like the WW2 generation who were so much stronger, more stoical and generally morally superior (repeat trite WW2 analogies ad nauseum) [/quote]
Im not talking about lockdown.
I am talking about the wearing of masks.
Its hardly that difficult.
My children have been wearing them for months.
No issues.
They don't like it, but they live with it.
Im not referring to the impact of lockdown. Just merely the wearing of masks.

Like wise, as a teacher myself, I have had to endure it too
in class.
All my children struggled with lockdown as did the children I taught but for the most part, they have more or less bounced back since schools have been back. There are undoubtedly things that have changed them but the pandemic did that. It altered everything. Even if there were no impact on schools, children would still have found it difficult. What can you do?

In many ways we have been so very fortunate that the illness itself has not affected children [ in terms of their health] in the short term.
We have no idea how covid may affect their bodies later on however.
Nothing has been normal about the pandemic.
There is no way that you could even try to make it normal or pretend it was normal. Masks imo are essential esp for high school kids.

@neveradullmoment99 And I am taking specifically about masks too. In my friend’s daughter’s case she was so self-conscious about wearing one that she withdrew from her friendship group and became very isolated in school. Her quiet voice meant she couldn’t make herself heard through the mask, and she stopped contributing in class. Came to light because her grades started slipping significantly and teachers mentioned during parents’ evening that she was almost entirely silent during school hours. Began to bounce back once the school mask mandate ended (we’re in England).

So in her case, as a sensitive and self-conscious 14 year old, it was indeed ‘that difficult’.

Would those saying masks cause no harm or psychological damage to children like to explain that to my previously independent, outgoing, educationally achieving (deaf) teenager who is now socially isolated, plummeted exam grades and won't use public transport or go into shops alone?

It is 'that difficult'.

If children are deemed to be such low risk that they don't need vaccinating (or that the risks from a very safe vaccine are comparable to tiny risks of Covid) then they don't need masks.

The quicker Covid can spread through schools the better... These continued attempts at suppression are as futile as Canute trying to hold back the tide.

@MarshaBradyo

Ventilation improvement is no bad thing. I remember a fair while back (amidst all the union stuff in press) I said if we could focus on one mitigation I’d choose that and really go for it. Must have been last year or maybe last lockdown.

I missed discussion on R4 about it this am but I’m glad to hear it’s being raised. Not sure what was said though

Ventilation is a good thing, but all it can hope to do is slow the spread in schools, not stop it. I'm not sure why slowing the spread is a good thing at this stage though, as it just prolongs the agony for everyone. For some, it seems like masks, excessive sanitising and social distancing need to be in place forever and ever, with no end.

@Warhertisuff

If children are deemed to be such low risk that they don't need vaccinating (or that the risks from a very safe vaccine are comparable to tiny risks of Covid) then they don't need masks.

The quicker Covid can spread through schools the better... These continued attempts at suppression are as futile as Canute trying to hold back the tide.

I do agree actually.

The only good thing about ventilation is unlike other mitigation no harms to dc.

I wouldn’t be against it and could hear more on reality of it.

@Warhertisuff - except the JCVI hasn’t actually concluded that children don’t need vaccinating. It’s looking like they will eventually conclude that all children over the age of 12 actually do.

The only good thing about ventilation is unlike other mitigation no harms to dc.
You are clearly not an UFT person Marsha, the most common ventilation method is opening windows and the children are COLD! Teachers are mean! (Joking aside, keeping good window ventilation going in the winter in Scotland is not easy, some days I wore gloves in class and pupils kept their coats on).
NeonK that sounds so hard. The school should have made some more adjustments for her, like the teacher wearing a visor or a see-through mask. That doesn't help with her classmates, but at least breaks and lunches don't involve masks and social media doesn't either. But it has been a shit time for deaf people and I don't underestimate the impact on a teen in this position.

In the classes where there were hearing impaired classes o always made sure I removed my mask before talking to the class. Then replaced it. Not a problem.
I accepted the increased risk to myself and the pupils in the front row from me as a reasonable adjustment.

[quote Walkaround]@Warhertisuff - except the JCVI hasn’t actually concluded that children don’t need vaccinating. It’s looking like they will eventually conclude that all children over the age of 12 actually do.[/quote]
Maybe not, but the fact they continue to wait mean that the risks are clearly finely balanced, in a way they aren't for adults.

@ineedaholidaynow

Maybe people should be asking the Government to sort something about the ventilation in schools, that I am sure is going to be the main problem going forward

This. I think ventilation is a very important tool. Perhaps us4them could advocate for ventilation as they seem to have a massive amount of pull. I get the impression they are generally against anything that helps to genuinely live with covid (rather than ignore it), but surely there are no negatives to sorting ventilation out?

There are variations between studies in numbers of kids with long covid, depending on methodology. The Zoe study is limited for various reasons e.g. kids with no symptoms for over a week were counted as 'recovered', it relied on parents regularly inputting and describing symptoms etc. The real figure is likely to be higher. However, covid in kids is real. Kids are in hospital. There are neurological changes etc. I think living with covid does not mean ignoring it or minimising it. Vaccines are a great weapon in living with covid, but we need other measures too to reduce risk, especially in school settings which are the perfect environment for covid.
What number of children getting long term illness (or worse) due to covid is acceptable in learning to 'live with it'? This must have been modelled or factored into decisions somewhere? Does anyone know?

The woven material used in many cloth masks is not as effective at filtering particles as that used to make surgical masks and respirators, Ms Marr said.

While surgical masks are more effective, the N95 respirators can add even more protection as they are designed to fit snugly to the face.

Many (as in not all) cloth masks is not as effective (implying it does have some effect)

...Surgical masks are more effective (thus indicating they did have some effect) and N95 ... add even more protection (again implying some protection from the other masks)

My cotton masks actually fit far more snugly than the disposable surgical masks (I bought kids ones!)
While they may be less effective it's not saying they are useless.

Considering the money the government has "found" or allocated to other pandemic issues, I cant see why ventilation in schools (or other public buildings) could not have been addressed in any of the lockdowns. A school nearby having building /renovation work finished well ahead of schedule last year during lockdown/school holidays. The nightingale hospitals were completed in ridiculously short time scales....but I've heard nothing about improving air ventilation in schools even though a lot have been largely empty for long periods of time.
Before anyone corrects me to say schools were not closed (I know) doing work in a school operating at for instance 20% capacity would surely be more feasible than trying to carry out works in a fully filled school. ..?

@beentoldcomputersaysno

This. I think ventilation is a very important tool. Perhaps us4them could advocate for ventilation as they seem to have a massive amount of pull. I get the impression they are generally against anything that helps to genuinely live with covid (rather than ignore it), but surely there are no negatives to sorting ventilation out?

Ventilation is a good thing generally, but it can only delay Covid's spread through a school community. If ventilation means that Covid cases are spread over four months rather than, say, one before there is "herd immunity" amongst pupils, that may help in some ways, though it just means that the schools in under Covid's shadow for longer.

Also, ventilation (that involves more than just opening windows) clearly isn't free. There are 32,000 schools in the U.K. each one with an average of, say, 30 classrooms. Ventilation costs about £3,000 per classroom (i believe), so that's £3.2 billion. Even with a blank chequebook, logistically you wouldn't realistically have all schools done until the start of 2022/23 school year, if that!

So ventilation is a good thing, but are there better ways to spend £3bn+ when all it would do is slow Covid's spread somewhat, and even then couldn't be implemented fully for over a year.

@beentoldcomputersaysno

There are variations between studies in numbers of kids with long covid, depending on methodology. The Zoe study is limited for various reasons e.g. kids with no symptoms for over a week were counted as 'recovered', it relied on parents regularly inputting and describing symptoms etc. The real figure is likely to be higher. However, covid in kids is real. Kids are in hospital. There are neurological changes etc. I think living with covid does not mean ignoring it or minimising it. Vaccines are a great weapon in living with covid, but we need other measures too to reduce risk, especially in school settings which are the perfect environment for covid. What number of children getting long term illness (or worse) due to covid is acceptable in learning to 'live with it'? This must have been modelled or factored into decisions somewhere? Does anyone know?

But surely if its here to stay then most children are going to get it anyway?

I am not saying let it rip through schools and I think ventilation is key. I wonder if its one of the things that has helped my kids school keep Covid cases low - each classroom has a door to outside.

I don't want my kids to catch Covid, I will be slightly concerned when they do catch Covid but I accept that really there is nothing I can do to stop them catching Covid, and also once they do they will have some immunity.

@Warhertisuff - articles like this: www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
make me think that I personally would rather my children were better protected from covid until after they have been vaccinated than you are happy with. Apparently fine balance or not, I don’t want my children getting cognitive decline in their GCSE and A-level years, thank you very much.

[quote Walkaround]@Warhertisuff - articles like this: www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
make me think that I personally would rather my children were better protected from covid until after they have been vaccinated than you are happy with. Apparently fine balance or not, I don’t want my children getting cognitive decline in their GCSE and A-level years, thank you very much.[/quote]
Thanks for the article.... Interesting read indicating that risk of cognitive deficiency is far greater amongst those who required significant medical intervention (which wasn't surprising),
and children, of course, are very unlikely to require such intervention.

I, too, would prefer my children not to get Covid... No one would willing wish Covid on their child. However, my view is that the impact of continued suppression attempts that are likely to only have fairly marginal benefits in delaying not stopping the Covid tide, outweigh the risk posed by Covid.

@Warhertisuff It depends what you mean by continued suppression attempts - from the point of view of someone whose children will all shortly be over the age of 16, I would very much appreciate a policy of at least keeping windows open for ventilation for as much of the Autumn term as is feasibly possible! Especially given the article also indicated definite cognitive deficits in people who tested positive but did not go to hospital at all. It’s not as if people going into exam years next year are not disadvantaged enough already by DfE decision making over the last couple of years.