Immoral and dangerous - or sensible? Vaccination for 16 year old.

[CaptainCaveMum]

Locally many many healthy (not CV nor living with someone CV) 16 year olds are getting vaccinated. The majority of my DS’s friends have now had their first dose. I’m being encouraged (by other parents) to take DS for the vaccine.

I’m conflicted.

The JCVI has clearly said the risk (small) to these children outweighs the benefits (even smaller).
Morally I am uncomfortable about cheating the system when older and sicker people here and overseas would benefit more.

But.

From a social perspective, my unvaccinated DS may miss out on some things eg nightclubs, festivals.
And what if the JCVI are wrong?
And what if he catches COVID?

DS says he’ll do what I advise.
Please help me unpick this.

@bumbleymummy

Infection also contributes to herd immunity.

See quotes from all public health bodies who unanimously do not recommend getting towards herd immunity by infection. Each infection has the potential to impact others and gives further chance for mutations to be acquired.

alongside the health risks associated with COVID versus vaccination too

@Tightsonatrain I think you’re referring to info from last year which was advising against a herd immunity approach solely by infection, in the absence of a vaccine to protect those at risk. That is not what is happening now. We have been able to vaccinate the most vulnerable groups that are most likely to be hospitalised/die from the virus. We now have ~93% of people over 16 with antibodies in the U.K. from either vaccination or infection. Young people who contract the virus are also contributing to herd immunity.

See quotes from all public health bodies who unanimously do not recommend getting towards herd immunity by infection. Each infection has the potential to impact others and gives further chance for mutations to be acquired.

It's just astonishing that we're still having to say this, isn't it?

[quote bumbleymummy]@Tightsonatrain I think you’re referring to info from last year which was advising against a herd immunity approach solely by infection, in the absence of a vaccine to protect those at risk. That is not what is happening now. We have been able to vaccinate the most vulnerable groups that are most likely to be hospitalised/die from the virus. We now have ~93% of people over 16 with antibodies in the U.K. from either vaccination or infection. Young people who contract the virus are also contributing to herd immunity.[/quote]
nope I'm really not

it still isn't recommended, despite having vaccinating those vulnerable, that herd immunity is reached via infection when we have effective vaccines

@bumbleymummy

Infection also contributes to herd immunity.

I don't think anyone is stopping you and your children from getting infected are they? Do you not think that the option for those who would rather that their kids didn't get their immunity through infection should be available to them? Nobody will force you to get your kids vaccinated but what is so terrible about giving people a choice?

We’re not reaching herd immunity solely by infection though are we? The point is that those who have already been infected have already contributed to herd immunity and all the people currently being infected and recovering will continue to add to that. All the ‘recommendations’ in the world don’t stop you getting COVID when you still have to go to work/school and your age group aren’t eligible for the vaccine yet and, whether you like it or not, infection also provides immunity - so unvaccinated people are contributing to herd immunity.

I'm curious to know if any other countries are relying on children getting a preventable disease in order to achieve herd immunity or if it's just the UK?

@bumbleymummy

We’re not reaching herd immunity solely by infection though are we? The point is that those who have already been infected have already contributed to herd immunity and all the people currently being infected and recovering will continue to add to that. All the ‘recommendations’ in the world don’t stop you getting COVID when you still have to go to work/school and your age group aren’t eligible for the vaccine yet and, whether you like it or not, infection also provides immunity - so unvaccinated people are contributing to herd immunity.

None of these statements counter the fact that it is not recommended to get to herd immunity via infection, for all the reasons described

The fact that it's happening despite it not being a great idea, and that fortunately those vulnerable are as protected as they can be with the current vaccines, doesn't change this

@Aloethere well technically it’s supposed to be a ‘choice’ to have the vaccine as an adult but look at what’s happening there.

DD17 was volunteering at a COVID centre yesterday and spent a looong time chatting up Dr (who is admittedly v good looking) to see if he'd give it to her if there were any spares. Very cross her efforts were all in vain!

I think that they should give 16 and 17 year olds the option tbh as they are the ones who are likely to suffer the most if schools are disrupted.

@Tightsonatrain no, it’s not recommended to get it solely by infection, as I’ve already said.

[quote bumbleymummy]@Tightsonatrain no, it’s not recommended to get it solely by infection, as I’ve already said.[/quote]
no @bumbleymummy I feel we're going round in circles

it isn't recommended at all

It is better for themselves and the general population if a person gains immunity via vaccination instead of vaccination

via vaccination than infection

When comparing infection versus vaccination on average there is a greater:

• risk of transmitting to others
• chance for mutations to occur
• greater risk of severe symptoms or hospitalization (which will impact on others) and death
• risk of long term complications

hence why it is recommended that people are vaccinated rather than gain their immunity via vaccination

oh gosh so many typos but you get the gist, time for me to have an after work wine and sit down

But as I’m sure you know, in the U.K, the JCVI has not recommended vaccination for under 18s (unless they’re Cv) so clearly, it’s not considered better for them to have the vaccine.

@bumbleymummy

But as I’m sure you know, in the U.K, the JCVI has not recommended vaccination for under 18s (unless they’re Cv) so clearly, it’s not considered better for them to have the vaccine.

Do you have children? If they change that recommendation will you get your children vaccinated?

@bumbleymummy

But as I’m sure you know, in the U.K, the JCVI has not recommended vaccination for under 18s (unless they’re Cv) so clearly, it’s not considered better for them to have the vaccine.

So if the JCVI changes its recommendation you will get your children vaccinated?

I've taught my children their body, their choice and that includes vaccines. I've not had it myself but if my children wanted it I'd let them decide but they are teenagers not primary school age. As long as they are informed before making the decision and don't listen to people swaying them either way that's fine.

“ CDC investigations have found that the amount of virus present in vaccinated people infected with Delta is similar to the levels found in unvaccinated people with Delta infections. That's an indication that vaccinated people can easily transmit the virus — even though they're less likely to get sick on the whole.”

There’s not much point in worrying about mutations in unvaccinated people in the U.K. when most of the world is still unvaccinated.

Risk of severe symptoms/hospitalisation/death is extremely low in young people anyway.

No, I wouldn’t vaccinate them. They’re very low risk. Covid is much lower risk for them than some of the activities they do!

I just find it strange that people are willing to accept the JCVI recommendations for adults but then dismiss them for children.

DS 16 has had his first vaccination and waiting to be called for 2nd, he should be fully vaccinated by the time he returns to school. Our local vaccination hubs are inviting local schools with 6th forms to take up sessions so many 16-18 yr olds will be vaccinated by the beginning of term. The virus has been ripping through this age group locally so hopefully their A levels will not be a problem.
The local vaccine take up levels are very high so the decision has been made to offer to teenagers. We already have 78% of adults fully vaccinated so why not extend to under 18s rather than waist supplies.

@bumbleymummy

“ CDC investigations have found that the amount of virus present in vaccinated people infected with Delta is similar to the levels found in unvaccinated people with Delta infections. That's an indication that vaccinated people can easily transmit the virus — even though they're less likely to get sick on the whole.”

There’s not much point in worrying about mutations in unvaccinated people in the U.K. when most of the world is still unvaccinated.

Risk of severe symptoms/hospitalisation/death is extremely low in young people anyway.

There’s not much point in worrying about mutations in unvaccinated people in the U.K. when most of the world is still unvaccinated.

Nope, and that's a dangerous statement to make. Saw on another thread and thought it was very relevant - just because lots of houses are on fire doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to put out your own house fire.

The UK is in a privileged position and we should be doing all we can to prevent new variants, not just going along because other countries are also in risky positions. An immune escape variant, wherever it originates from, would be disastrous.

@bumbleymummy

No, I wouldn’t vaccinate them. They’re very low risk. Covid is much lower risk for them than some of the activities they do!

I just find it strange that people are willing to accept the JCVI recommendations for adults but then dismiss them for children.

But you just said that you would dismiss them for children if the recommendations change? Is that not strange?

@bumbleymummy

No, I wouldn’t vaccinate them. They’re very low risk. Covid is much lower risk for them than some of the activities they do!

I just find it strange that people are willing to accept the JCVI recommendations for adults but then dismiss them for children.

This makes no sense. You'd reject their recommendations if they change - which it looks likely they will - but you don't understand why other people reject their recommendations?