The Times today

[ToomuchHeat]

(Last line ‘mass exposure’)

Whatever their motivations, the JCVI has rightly pointed out that the vaccine hasn't been tested comprehensively on children and that the potential personal benefit to a child doesn't outweigh the potential risk. That's a sensible, evidence-based conclusion backed up by the research

What is odd, though, is that in their report the JCVI suggested that in order to prevent disruption to education that would be caused by children catching covid instead of being vaccinated against it, children with covid should be allowed to continue to attend school.

What research is that based on?

How do you come to the conclusion that leaving kids to get infected - a likely option in crowded classrooms with reduced isolation etc - is a better option when we have no long term data about the effects of covid?

If they're not going to vaccinate kids they should at least be putting a huge ventilation building project into schools so that there is excellent ventilation in all classrooms. Maybe a traffic light system like in New York.

Are they doing that? No.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

Never before have children been infected with covid on a large scale. Never. It's a pure guess in that circumstance. So you simply can't say what the outcome will be.

You can look at the evidence for immunological, cardiological, neurological impact of a very small dose of vaccine and a potentially very large amount of novel virus and weigh up cost and benefit though. As the US have done (and also our own MHRA). And apparently most parents (9/10) according to one fairly recent survey) would be in favour of vaccinating children.

[quote herecomesthsun]@TheDailyCarbunkle

Never before have children been infected with covid on a large scale. Never. It's a pure guess in that circumstance. So you simply can't say what the outcome will be.

You can look at the evidence for immunological, cardiological, neurological impact of a very small dose of vaccine and a potentially very large amount of novel virus and weigh up cost and benefit though. As the US have done (and also our own MHRA). And apparently most parents (9/10) according to one fairly recent survey) would be in favour of vaccinating children.[/quote]
The point I was making previously was that it's important to separate the two issues - covid has unknown consequences for children, that's true (though the data suggests that for most children it's a very minor illness). Equally the vaccine has unknown consequences (though the data suggests it should be fine). So it's a matter of choosing one unknown over the other. What I object to is the idea that vaccines are definitely a good and safe choice and that covid is a deadly threat to be avoided at all costs - that's simply not true and it worries me that people are making a knee-jerk decision based on fear and stress rather than any real understanding of what's going on.

Maybe people aren't making a knee jerk decision but are making a rational choice based on review of the medical evidence?

As my family will be. When we get the chance.

@TheDailyCarbunkle - There is exceptionally little evidence of young people being particularly scared of covid, except possibly to the extent of a fear of feeling responsible for killing grandparents or other vulnerable relatives. There is enough evidence, imvho, however, that covid can make young people feel ill enough for long enough that they would probably rather avoid getting it close to public exams… yet they are not being given any choices in the matter, either at 15-17, when they are in year groups expected to take these exams, or at 18. And I fail to see how it can inspire confidence in anyone at all that a vaccine is deemed potentially too unsafe to let people under 18 have, but safe enough to effectively force people aged 18 to have if they want to be allowed to behave like young people!

Many young people are probably immune already anyway.

And many young people still aren’t. Bit annoying to find out you aren’t just before your GCSEs or A-levels.

@Walkaround

And many young people still aren’t. Bit annoying to find out you aren’t just before your GCSEs or A-levels.

It would be a bit annoying to find out your vaccine hadn’t worked before your exam too.

Not very likely, though - the vaccine is reported to be particularly effective in young people. No symptoms/very minor ones a vast improvement on fatigue, coughing, upset stomach and no sense of smell. Also, not having to worry about rushing to get vaccinated in time for your 18th birthday when suddenly it’s more or less compulsory if you are to be considered safe to get anywhere near other human beings at university or in nightclubs, or for travelling easily overseas. You can orevent your children having it if you want, @bumbleymummy, but I fail to see the logic in preventing other young people from getting it on grounds of safety when such a short time later, they are given a hard time for refusing it.

@Walkaround most young people have very mild symptoms/are asymptomatic anyway

Vaccine passports are a ridiculous idea and shouldn’t be required.

@bumbleymummy - but I know a lot of young people who were not asymptomatic, including three who were hospitalised shortly after confirmed covid with ”suspected appendicitis,” but which turned out to be a condition caused by a viral infection which mimics the symptoms. I know several other children who had similar, although symptoms not quite severe enough for hospital. And when it comes down to it, most older people do not get particularly severe illness - the fact nevertheless is, you don’t need the majority of people to get seriously ill to have a global problem, do you?

Age is the biggest risk factor.

And if you read the JCVI report you can see that the risk of serious illness in young people is very low.

@bumbleymummy - doesn’t negate the fact risk of illness bad enough to disrupt exam revision/exams to an extent the end result may be affected is actually reasonably high, given the fact the general approach for young people is to just leave them to get covid.

So by the time exams come round, most of them will already be immune anyway.

Disruption to schools was factored into the JCVI decision.

@bumbleymummy - given the fact almost all scientists are saying they don’t really know what is going to happen this Autumn and Winter, that does not inspire me with any confidence whatsoever. They are really just saying they are taking a punt on it and apparently have no idea at all whether or not that will turn out to have been in the interests of young people or not.

@bumbleymummy

So by the time exams come round, most of them will already be immune anyway.

Disruption to schools was factored into the JCVI decision.

It's not just being off at the time of the exam that affects your education though, if you have missed a section of the course (and then maybe your teacher is off for another section) that would affect your exam performance too.

@sashagabadon

The thing about long Covid is that a. It’s self reports and b. It seems to include vague things like fatigue and tiredness. Surely any study would have to be compared with levels of tiredness in the general population not suffering from long Covid to be valid?

Indeed.

Bandwagon for anyone who has any tiredness or pretty much anything to stop on. Some people are persistent worriers and always ill, I have a friend who thinks she has everything going but what she actually has is anxiety which isn't nice anyway.