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Covid

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The Times today

194 replies

ToomuchHeat · 24/07/2021 19:07

(Last line ‘mass exposure’)

The Times today
OP posts:
Walkaround · 25/07/2021 21:45

@RedToothBrush

TBH i do think there are a hell of a lot of people who are so wedded to the idea that vaccines are a miracle beyond question that they won't stop to think.

I am not anti-vax. Quite the opposite. I think vaccines are brilliant but should be used appropriately like any other medicine.

The problem is after being conditioned about the importance and value of vaccines to adults its hard to get your head around the idea of different risk profiles for children.

And risk - both on a population and individual level - is something that the vast majority of people (even educated ones) struggle to get their heads around full stop without the emotive stuff floating around.

Even if there was compelling data on there being risks I don't think some would want to listen to that as an argument because 'won't someone think of the children'.

At the moment we are simply not seeing enough to reasonably make a water tight case for vaccines. Its marginal - at best - and thats why there is a fundamental problem here and those who want it, just aren't going to be satisfied whatever simply because the MHRA say its safe. Without putting this into context of what safe means or what the ramifications would be for a number of deaths resulting from a child death or serious side effects from a vaccine - in the absence of a substantial benefit from vaccines.

The indirect consequences of this could have a huge impact on public health in the long run which would be far more damaging and cost more lives in non-covid related areas.

It is not a zero sum game to give vaccines to children even under the MHRA approval as safe.

We need trust in vaccines to be as high as possible across the board. Children will die in far greater numbers from other illnesses if we lose that public trust.

Thats where I come from. A place thinking about the health of children in relation to vaccines but from a different angle. I worry about the risk of things like measles far more than covid, because thats the reality of a world without vaccines and public trust in vaccines is absoluetely crucial in that equation.

It would only take a handful of cases in the press to trigger it. And the converse is not true in a 'do nothing' scenario. Not at this point (where we could only have started vaccinating most children now based on their risk profile). There's already been enough exposure.

This might change if we see the emergence of a new variant - but this would be picked up pretty damned quick if this were to arise and the JVCI probably think this likelihood is small at this stage in the panademic cycle.... (especially as many children will have some level of immunity through exposure anyway).

@RedToothBrush - We do need trust in vaccines to be as high as possible across the board. That would be why other countries had a younger cut off age for use of the AZ vaccine than the UK, so it would seem the JCVI isn’t averse to vaccines killing some people who would have been very unlikely to die from covid.

I find it interesting, this sudden cut off at 18. I do not for a second believe there is any remotely significant difference, risk-wise, between a 17-year old and an 18-year old. A 17-year old in their A-level year could, however, be argued to be personally benefitting more than an 18-year old from a vaccine that might protect them for an illness that can commonly cause issues with fatigue and concentration for 8-12 weeks. Yet it is not an option for a 17-year old to get the vaccine, whereas an 18-year old will be penalised for not having one, despite not being anymore at risk than someone a year younger. This does not give me much confidence in the decision making of the powers that be, in all honesty.

Walkaround · 25/07/2021 21:47

*older cut off age

Ifitquacks · 25/07/2021 21:49

@Walkaround you are of course aware that there has to be a cut off somewhere? If 17, why not 16? If 16 why not 15? There are age cut offs for all sorts of things.

Walkaround · 25/07/2021 21:51

@Ifitquacks - ues, a cut off that enables children going into exam years (years 11 and 13) to be vaccinated would make perfect sense to me ;-).

Walkaround · 25/07/2021 21:53

It’s not as if there are not other vaccine programmes where specific school year groups get offered a specific vaccine…

BridgetGetTheGin · 25/07/2021 22:01

@Sparklingbrook

Sounds like better news. Smile

And misinformation being deleted on this thread. Smile

👏🏼
LilyPond2 · 26/07/2021 00:02

Re vaccination being made mandatory for care home workers, what is the position re 16 and 17-year-olds who work in care homes? Are they obliged to get vaccinated?

Walkaround · 26/07/2021 08:09

I would not be at all surprised if they are obliged - it would be typically hypocritical if other healthy people their age are not allowed it because it is “not worth the risk” at their age, but that they are nevertheless obliged to have it to “protect others” they don’t even live with.

greygrass · 27/07/2021 15:15

No, the new law is only that over 18s working in care home must have the vaccine
(though care homes may want to encourage younger staff to have it to keep the residents safe)

greygrass · 27/07/2021 15:18

So the government continue to be very ambivalent (understatement) about under 18s getting the vaccine, even in a very high-risk environment with high stakes like a care home.
Inconsistent and out-of-step with policies in US and EU on vaccinating 12-18 yos.

specialagentoso100 · 27/07/2021 15:23

@NannyAndJohn has been spreading dreadful misinformation non-stop re long covid for 12 months. She/he should have received a permanent ban months ago. Absolutely disgusting she has been allowed to get away with it.

herecomesthsun · 27/07/2021 15:29

[quote specialagentoso100]@NannyAndJohn has been spreading dreadful misinformation non-stop re long covid for 12 months. She/he should have received a permanent ban months ago. Absolutely disgusting she has been allowed to get away with it.[/quote]
more bullying

specialagentoso100 · 27/07/2021 15:31

Not bullying @herecomesthsun . Just pointing out the truth. We all want proper, pukka information. Spreading mistruths helps nobody and needs calling out on either side.

herecomesthsun · 27/07/2021 15:32

@specialagentoso100

Not bullying *@herecomesthsun* . Just pointing out the truth. We all want proper, pukka information. Spreading mistruths helps nobody and needs calling out on either side.
then address information you don't agree with and make it less personal
specialagentoso100 · 27/07/2021 15:35

How can it not be personal when it is the same poster constantly posting the misinformation about long covid. Thankfully MN has deleted some of her/his posts on this issue. They are relentless though and I suspect have caused no end of stress/worry among parents and mumsnetters. This is meant to be a supportive site not one where people go out of their way to frighten other posters (based on zero evidence).

TheVampiresWife · 27/07/2021 15:56

It's not bullying to suggest that a poster who has said that there's a 'let the bodies pile up' crew on MN who are happy with thousands of deaths should at least be spoken to by MN off the boards. Someone (along with a couple of others) who has continually spread misinformation, going right back to spring last year, and stoked up fear and anxiety. MN makes a big thing of how it's supposed to be a supportive environment, and posters like these have made the covid boards anything but.

The things that poster says are often inflammatory, deeply insensitive and offensive to those who have been personally affected by the pandemic or have lost loved ones.

DottyHarmer · 27/07/2021 16:02

At least nannyandjohn is out and proud with their agenda. The ones who get me are those who post disingenuous questions about vaccine side effects (yeah, you all have the same style) or the outright liars like the poster who claimed paediatric ICUs were full. Luckily the latter poster did a name-change blunder and was exposed, but others just constantly re-invent themselves to spread fear and lies.

FourTeaFallOut · 27/07/2021 16:08

Luckily the latter poster did a name-change blunder and was exposed, but others just constantly re-invent themselves to spread fear and lies.

Really? ShockGrin

NannyAndJohn · 27/07/2021 21:14

[quote specialagentoso100]@NannyAndJohn has been spreading dreadful misinformation non-stop re long covid for 12 months. She/he should have received a permanent ban months ago. Absolutely disgusting she has been allowed to get away with it.[/quote]
I rarely reply to these kind of comments, but I've only been here for 4-5 months, not a whole year.

NannyAndJohn · 27/07/2021 21:16

[quote specialagentoso100]@NannyAndJohn has been spreading dreadful misinformation non-stop re long covid for 12 months. She/he should have received a permanent ban months ago. Absolutely disgusting she has been allowed to get away with it.[/quote]
Everything I say is backed up by either data or quotes from SAGE/Independent SAGE.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 27/07/2021 21:33

What, like 100,000 cases a day by June 21st?

TheVampiresWife · 27/07/2021 21:38

Everything I say is backed up by either data or quotes from SAGE/Independent SAGE

Did either say there would be 100k cases by 21 June, and when that didn't happen, by 19 July? Or that children going on a school trip to a museum was a breeding ground for long covid?

PomRuns · 27/07/2021 22:11

The paediatric ICU thread was horrendous and wasn't deleted for some days even when paediatricians released a statement to say it wasn't true.

Sadly some defend the misinformation as it fits with their thoughts/agenda.

Sparklingbrook · 27/07/2021 22:17

Is it really only 4-5 months? Feels way longer than that.

herecomesthsun · 27/07/2021 23:01

@PomRuns

The paediatric ICU thread was horrendous and wasn't deleted for some days even when paediatricians released a statement to say it wasn't true.

Sadly some defend the misinformation as it fits with their thoughts/agenda.

It is entirely reasonable for people to discuss their concerns.