The Times today

[ToomuchHeat]

(Last line ‘mass exposure’)

Of course but it is not reasonable to support lies which cause needless anxiety.

The paediatric ICU thread was horrendous

Was that the one where some attention seeking "matron" claimed her unit was full of children? If so, yes it was a disgrace - made worse because of the insults flung around, and all on the basis of a lie which some swallowed wholesale

Of course it's reasonable to discuss concerns, but wouldn't it be better to do it based on facts rather than deliberate scaremongering?

I didn't see any lies, just people trying to discuss different opinions. It's a bit bad form to try to curtail discussions.

Who’s trying to virtual discussion ? What is bad firm is deliberately causing upset about something that is a complete lie and was evidenced to be.
Strange you didn’t see this.

*form

It is perfectly possible that there were 1 or 2 wards with kids with covid in them at that point. In fact it's quite likely that there were, because presumably there would be some separation of +ve and -ve patients. Not lies, not horrendous for someone to have started that thread.

It's a bit bad form to try to curtail discussions

Fortunately that's HQ's job rather than ours, but since their Talk Guidelines say "No trolling, misleading or deliberately inflammatory behaviour" I personally have no problem with them deleting posts which are exactly that

It was lies. Several paediatricians spoke out and wrote a statement.

I don't think they deleted that thread (can't remember) but I agree that it's better to leave moderation to mumsnet & not go round saying people can't have a discussion in case it makes someone anxious.

It is perfectly possible that there were 1 or 2 wards with kids with covid in them at that point

Nobody's disputing that - indeed it's highly likely there were some children on the wards - but reportedly Nurse Duffel said "It was minimally affecting children in the first wave but we have a whole ward of children here and I know some of my colleagues are in the same situation with whole wards of children with Covid"

Which is rather different and is doubtless the reason she got slapped down

Absolutely right she was called out on it, it was lies, it was a horrendous and very odd thing to do.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

It is perfectly possible that there were 1 or 2 wards with kids with covid in them at that point

Nobody's disputing that - indeed it's highly likely there were some children on the wards - but reportedly Nurse Duffel said "It was minimally affecting children in the first wave but we have a whole ward of children here and I know some of my colleagues are in the same situation with whole wards of children with Covid"

Which is rather different and is doubtless the reason she got slapped down

So 2 or 3 wards with kids on in all of London then? It might genuinely have been her experience. I am sure her trust wouldn't have liked her saying that though as there are comms policies - & central control- and they wouldn't have wanted someone going off message.

The paeds who then spoke to the media said it wasn't generally the case if I remember aright, but both they and she could have been telling the truth.

The picu consultants for all the London trusts rehearsed a statement to say it was not true.

There were several threads before this about paeds which were also proven to be incorrect.

*released not rehearsed !

I seem to remember a statement by Russell Viner whose previous opinions on the possibility of transmission in children etc were interesting and later overtaken by evidence.

I don't remember a combined statement by PICU doctors.

But I don't think it is horrendous that someone seeing something shocking at the coalface of clinical care would want to raise a concern and I would suspend some judgement over that on a personal level.

Interesting you don’t find it horrendous yet mildly optimistic posts are often ripped apart.

@PomRuns

Interesting you don’t find it horrendous yet mildly optimistic posts are often ripped apart.

?

I find it really odd that people are so concerned about long covid but not about the potential effects of a vaccine that didn't exist a year ago and as such has no long-term safety data. There is a lot of evidence that children are rarely hospitalised from covid and very very rarely die from it. The data around long covid is uncertain - it's hard to measure and not enough time has elapsed to see how it plays out.

Whatever their motivations, the JCVI has rightly pointed out that the vaccine hasn't been tested comprehensively on children and that the potential personal benefit to a child doesn't outweigh the potential risk. That's a sensible, evidence-based conclusion backed up by the research and yet people are still willing for their children to take a risk on a medication that doesn't have enough data to show that it's safe.

When we look back on the pandemic in years to come the focus will be on how entirely people lost their ability to risk assess in any meaningful way and how the focus and fear around covid caused them to be unable to see the bigger picture.

There are some concerning reports regarding infections in children come out in the last day or 2.

I suspect though if I cite them I'll be accused of some cliche or something - doommongering etc- but I can quote them if you like.

Personally, I would rather my children - esp 12+ -had a vaccine than covid and funny enough the US, Israel and half of Europe etc agree.

I think in years to come we will wonder how we allowed a new pathogen to spread unchecked in of all places schools and infect our kids.

Plenty of cautious optimism from the actual experts today, as opposed to the MN 'experts'.

It can be true at the same time that covid is concerning and that the vaccine doesn't have enough safety data to warrant giving it to every child. The fallout of injecting a medication with unknown outcomes into millions of children is potentially catastrophic - should the vaccine cause auto immune issues, or heart problems, for example, then that could mean a whole generation of children affected, when covid might have done nothing at all to them. The fact that covid is worrying doesn't mean that you then opt for something that is potentially just as bad or worse. There's every chance the vaccine is fine for children, but the point is that we just don't know. There is evidence that in younger men, in particular, the Pfizer vaccine can cause heart problems (endocarditis and pericarditis). The AZ vaccine has killed people. It would be horrific for a parent to take their healthy child to be vaccinated only to then have to deal with that child being very ill or dying as a result.

People seem to think vaccine=good no matter what. Vaccines are human inventions and as such are no infallible or perfect. They are great in the right circumstances but it is sensible to be just as cautious about them as we are with anything else with the potential to cause harm.

@TheDailyCarbunkle it is possible to weigh up the risks intelligently and come to the conclusion that the vaccine is the least worse option, as the medical establishment in the US has done. People who disagree with you may be perfectly well-informed about the 2 sets of risks.

@TheVampiresWife I am cautiously optimistic too. I would also like us to have the option of vaccinating our teems, especially vulnerable ones. The 2 points of view are perfectly compatible.

@herecomesthsun

There are some concerning reports regarding infections in children come out in the last day or 2.

I suspect though if I cite them I'll be accused of some cliche or something - doommongering etc- but I can quote them if you like.

Personally, I would rather my children - esp 12+ -had a vaccine than covid and funny enough the US, Israel and half of Europe etc agree.

I feel the opposite and won't be vaccinating DS.

[quote herecomesthsun]@TheDailyCarbunkle it is possible to weigh up the risks intelligently and come to the conclusion that the vaccine is the least worse option, as the medical establishment in the US has done. People who disagree with you may be perfectly well-informed about the 2 sets of risks.

@TheVampiresWife I am cautiously optimistic too. I would also like us to have the option of vaccinating our teems, especially vulnerable ones. The 2 points of view are perfectly compatible.[/quote]
How do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine is the least worst option in a situation where you have no data? It's a pure guess in that circumstance. Never before have children been given an mRNA vaccine on a large scale. Never. So they simply can't say what the outcome will be.