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Schools - we just have to bite the bullet...

222 replies

Warhertisuff · 21/07/2021 08:26

It's completely futile to think we can stop Covid spreading through schools in the longer term. Who are we trying to kid? We may be angry that we are in this situation, but we are and we have to live with it.

It seems to be that it will be far better all round if Covid is just treated as we would the flu in schools. From September all teachers and CEV pupils should have been vaccinated, so we may as well just let it happen, with children off school when they are too unwell to attend. At least that way, disruption will be minimised and concentrated into a few weeks at the start of term.

OP posts:
canigooutyet · 22/07/2021 21:18

It's mad that the government are listening to the advisors who state that the risk of the vaccination isn't worth the benefits of the vaccine. (or wording to that effect)

Yet the government have ignored other advisors and committee findings in other areas and just cracked on doing their own thing.

herecomesthsun · 22/07/2021 21:20

@canigooutyet

It's mad that the government are listening to the advisors who state that the risk of the vaccination isn't worth the benefits of the vaccine. (or wording to that effect)

Yet the government have ignored other advisors and committee findings in other areas and just cracked on doing their own thing.

the risk is less than the benefit for vulnerable kids (who still aren't getting the fucking vaccine, it's all fucking hot air and no organisation)
3asAbird · 22/07/2021 21:23

I hate to say it does anyone think sept deliver phizer just go to all groups 1-9 who had az?

I thought novavax be ready by then.
Common sense would say we ensure the younger age groups that mix the most would reduce cases

I have really bad feeling about sept.
Can someone clarify in sept if child gets civud do siblings and parents stay at home?

Wellbythebloodyhell · 22/07/2021 21:25

@herecomesthsun

There appears to be no urgency in sorting out the delivery of vaccine to vulnerable 12-15s. Neither our tertiary level hospital team nor our GP practice have any idea when the vaccine would actually become available, you know, for the children to have administered.

The government guidelines now say to contact services if no-one has been in touch come late August.

They need their first vaccines NOW if they are going to have a decent level of immunity before going back to school.

The government are CUNTS.

At my CCG we have a clinic scheduled in 1st week in Aug specifically for vulnerable eligible dc so hopefully if you have an eligible dc you should hear soon of an appointment date. Please bare in mind the vaccine centres/CCG/ GPs tend to hear at the same time as everyone else unfortunately when things change so it does take a little time to put those changes into practice.
herecomesthsun · 22/07/2021 21:25

@Chessie678

The latest study I saw suggested that around 30% of children have had covid already.

That is in a year where schools have been closed to most students for a large part of the year and with various strong mitigations such as self-isolation for close contacts, the bubble system, cancelling extra-curricular activities etc and some increased ventilation and mask wearing. And now there is the delta variant which is more transmissible anyway.

Mitigation measures would probably have to cut the transmission rate tenfold to prevent most children getting covid in the long-term and we already know that that is infeasible unless you have a hard lockdown with schools closed.

If you have a five year old starting school, assuming that they won't be vaccinated until they are 12, does anyone really think ventilation, masks and social distancing in schools would prevent them getting covid before they are vaccinated (or that years of that sort of schooling would be worth it if it did). A child's whole school experience could be sitting 2m apart from their classmates with a mask on in a marquee with no mixing between year groups and no extracurricular activities with periodic stints of remote learning, if we implemented the policies which some people seem to want. I think we have lost sight of how damaging even "just" social distancing could be on a long-term basis.

The best that those measures are likely to do is create a timing difference in when a child catches covid, which is not particularly helpful anyway as it is generally better to get it younger.

Of course there may be a change in approach to vaccination at some point or covid rates might fall so much that being infected in school becomes unlikely. In those scenarios there might be a benefit for some children in slowing down transmission as fewer children would then get covid in the meantime. But you could spend years waiting for this sort of change, which might never come, and for many children that will be years of their education with these damaging policies.

These arguments end up being about whether long covid is an issue for children and protecting CEV children but I think that misses the point. Mitigation measures are not going to prevent most children being exposed to covid at some point unless they are much more effective than any measure we have tried so far or we just educate children remotely on a long-term basis.

And I don't think the comparison with flu in the context of children is that far off. Certainly, when I looked up the stats for babies a while ago flu was significantly more dangerous and we don't vaccinate babies against flu or do anything special to stop them catching it.

even Russell Viner is saying that vaccination makes sense for vulnerable kids.

you are the one missing the point mate

canigooutyet · 22/07/2021 21:35

Do people really think that the government updates anyone before they make the announcements?

Remember when we came out of lockdown. Announced today and to be implemented tomorrow to return to work. It was only after people said along the lines of wtaf was a slight change given.

There's probably loads more examples of them announcing things publicly without letting anyone else know.

Didn't the same happen when it was announced last year about the vaccine? People contacting various hcps for the vaccine and they didn't have a clue on when or how it would be done?

And yes @herecomesthsun I should have stipulated that.

And yup a load of hot air just like many, many, many things the government said they would do. Remind me someone, how's the catch up programme going? Did all the students who needed one eventually get a promised laptop and additional funding for wifi?

canigooutyet · 22/07/2021 21:38

And what really scares me is that these youngsters are our future leaders. What's to stop them saying you fuckers, here see how you like it. Lets do to you what you did to our generation.

What's that saying about children choosing their parents care home?

EducatingArti · 22/07/2021 21:49

@Wellbythebloodyhell

There would be sufficient to offer to over 12s once the new Pfizer batches arrive in September by which time most adults will have had the chance to have both doses.

The September batches are already allocated for the booster programme

I'm not sure they are all needed for the booster programme. Also James Ward who has done some excellent modeling of different scenarios on twitter ( he is middle of the road , not on either of the extremes) has come down on the side of vaccinating the 12+ as the best thing to reduce the size of the current wave. We are also going to HAVE to do this one way or another if we want to get to herd immunity as there's no other way to get 80%+ of the population vaccinated.
cantkeepawayforever · 22/07/2021 21:57

@3asAbird

I hate to say it does anyone think sept deliver phizer just go to all groups 1-9 who had az?

I thought novavax be ready by then.
Common sense would say we ensure the younger age groups that mix the most would reduce cases

I have really bad feeling about sept.
Can someone clarify in sept if child gets civud do siblings and parents stay at home?

As I understand it, no. Only those who are diagnosed as positive cases isolate. All contacts are 'advised' to do a PCR test and can otherwise carry on as normal.

From the schools' guidance:

"From 16 August 2021, children under the age of 18 years old will no longer be required to self-isolate if they are contacted by NHS Test and Trace as a close contact of a positive COVID-19 case.

Instead, children will be contacted by NHS Test and Trace, informed they have been in close contact with a positive case and advised to take a PCR test. We would encourage all individuals to take a PCR test if advised to do so."

For adults, the following applies (announcement of 16th July)
"As part of step 4 of the Government’s COVID-19 roadmap, double vaccinated people will no longer be legally required to self-isolate if they are identified as a close contact of a positive COVID-19 case, the Health and Social Care Secretary has confirmed today"

So it follows that if all siblings are under 18 and all adults in the family are double vaccinated, if a child gets Covid, only they need to isolate (unless the Government changes its minds and announces a different rule for household contacts).

The PCR testing is advised not mandatory.

lannistunut · 22/07/2021 21:59

Has anyone else posted this thread about the vaccine supply?

mobile.twitter.com/jonworth/status/1418267414052098049

herecomesthsun · 22/07/2021 22:07

did Dame Kate Bingham have a week off or summat?

Wellbythebloodyhell · 22/07/2021 22:20

I'm not sure they are all needed for the booster programme.

How do you know this? Do you know how much vaccine supply we are getting and how many vaccines are needed for the booster programme? Clearly some vaccine supply is being allocated to CEV dc and those with immuno suppressed family members. Isn't it better the CEV/vulnerable of all 12+ population is prioritised in the autumn rather than those who are statistically unlikely to suffer severely from covid? Doing everyone simultaneously isn't an option as much as we'd like it to be, it takes more than willpower alone to make it happen.

StripyGiraffes · 22/07/2021 22:37

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

Please DO treat it like 'flu - every adult n the school, and every child in the year group I teach in was vaccinated very early in the Autumn term for flu. I'd take that....

Well said @cantkeepawayforever

Pretty much every time I post about ds’s covid/long covid, someone pops up with “but other viruses trigger post viral illnesses!” Well, yes, they do. And we vaccinate against the vast majority of them. Flu, measles, mumps, rubella, meningitis, HPV, TB. Even chicken pox has a vaccine now. What prevalent disease are we not vaccinating kids against? Glandular fever perhaps? Not sure if there tend to be thousands of cases of that a day though. Never had a good answer to that one.

The two most common viruses causing ME/CFS pre-Covid were glandular fever and flu. No vaccine offered for he first, some partially effective vaccine given to some for the second. I agree that if other viruses were not vaccinated against the prevalence would have been far higher. Just like it has been in populations where SARS, MERS, Ebola etc have spread. Thousands of people suffering ME/CFS long term as a result.

This was entirely predictable. And if the general population had given a shit about people in the UK with this condition prior to Covid and pressured for appropriate funding for research and treatment there might be better help available to those now getting sick post Covid infection. They didn't, so there isn't. In fact for many years people did try to tell those disabled by it that it was psychological. Confused MS for example affects 10% of the number of people (pre-Covid) and receives over 10 times the research funding of ME/CFS. So for each patient, so each MS sufferer gets 100 times more spent on trying to research treatments. Shocking. That is why there's nothing to help those with "long-Covid" now. This research should have been done decades ago as it was always only a matter of time until a new virus triggered this condition in tens of thousands of people at once.

Chessie678 · 22/07/2021 22:39

@herecomesthsun
I have absolutely no issue with vulnerable children being vaccinated. That seems very sensible. I have no issue with children in general being vaccinated provided the benefit to them outweighs the risk of the vaccine, which isn’t clear at the moment. It seems finely balanced.

The point I was making was that mitigation methods like ventilation are not likely to be sufficient to stop most children getting covid at some point so are not really protecting CEV children or preventing children in general getting long covid. Vaccination would protect CEV children without damaging everyone’s education.

SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo · 23/07/2021 00:42

@StripyGiraffes Absolutely agree with you re CFS/ME. I have a chronic pain condition (EDS), a relative has fibro/CFS. We sat with a consultant who told us all her very physical symptoms were psychosomatic and I could have screamed. He couldn’t quite explain how her mind was causing all those problems, but he wasn’t interested in investigating further. Relative was nearly suicidal. Thankfully finally got an appointment with a specialist CFS clinic, but even then there’s been no “clinical” intervention, just advice about pacing and muscle strengthening. It’s ridiculous.

I think the lack of clinical interest and the assertion it’s “all in your head” has filtered through to the general population and it’s become a vicious cycle. It’s really, really shit. I hope that any focus on long covid will trigger better understanding and treatment for ME/CFS. (It shouldn’t ever have taken long covid for that to happen though) Flowers

StripyGiraffes · 23/07/2021 07:24

[quote SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo]@StripyGiraffes Absolutely agree with you re CFS/ME. I have a chronic pain condition (EDS), a relative has fibro/CFS. We sat with a consultant who told us all her very physical symptoms were psychosomatic and I could have screamed. He couldn’t quite explain how her mind was causing all those problems, but he wasn’t interested in investigating further. Relative was nearly suicidal. Thankfully finally got an appointment with a specialist CFS clinic, but even then there’s been no “clinical” intervention, just advice about pacing and muscle strengthening. It’s ridiculous.

I think the lack of clinical interest and the assertion it’s “all in your head” has filtered through to the general population and it’s become a vicious cycle. It’s really, really shit. I hope that any focus on long covid will trigger better understanding and treatment for ME/CFS. (It shouldn’t ever have taken long covid for that to happen though) Flowers[/quote]
That is appalling. Your poor relative. Good that they had you to help and eventually got referred to the CFS clinic but as you say not much use because no research funding means no effective treatments available.

I think the stance the Government and NHS have taken on ME/CFS for decades makes them very worried about admitting that "long Covid" is the same condition, and that disabling post-viral CFS always results from any major viral outbreak around the world. Because if they admit that they'll have to face up to how they've failed these patients previously and in many cases actively worsened their condition as you described. There will be lawsuits, no doubt.

Buttercup72 · 29/07/2021 13:28

I was diagnosed with cfs /fibro and agree I it’s a frustrating ‘diagnosis’.

After 7 years I read about a study linking fibro to gluten sensitivity. Although sceptical, I tried cutting out all gluten and within a fortnight about 90% of my symptoms were gone. This was life’s changing. I’ve since found out that gluten sensitivity can be caused by SIBO, an overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine. I have taken both natural products and nhs antibiotics to treat this and I’m now fully cured. Anyone with chronic pain/tiredness please read about these conditions online - there is stuff you can try yourself while the nhs catch up. I think gut health is at the root of a lot of chronic conditions -but nhs seems to be focussed just on ‘bowel issues’ rather than the wider body impacts.

Not sure if gut health will link to long COVID, but gut seems to have an ‘axis’ to everything in the body so wouldn’t rule it out. Worth a shot for anyone suffering.

TheGenealogist · 29/07/2021 13:59

@frozendaisy

So kids take it home, perhaps infect working adults, then what? Do the infected adults still go to work regardless what they do?

School pupils live in society, not just in school.

It's complicated and I agree largely that self isolation contact can't continue. But it's not just that simple is it?

Working adults who have been vaccinated? If people are ill then they stay off work just as they would with any other illness.

Vaccines are either the way out or they're not. If vaccines are the way out, and we've decided we're not vaccinating children, then they can;t persist with the bubbles and isolating and the rest of it.

Time to start thinking of Covid as just another risk of many, and not something special, which requires specific measures to deal with.

duffeldaisy · 31/07/2021 13:20

"It's got nothing to do with will its about having access to supply and having the logistics and staff to administer it aswell as the boosters for the over 50s/CEV at the same time. There isn't an never ending supply of vaccine and staff and vaccine sites available 24/7 to give it out. We can only give it out at the same speed as we aquire it, and at the moment the clinical need for the incoming batches is in the original 1-9 categories."

But that is exactly what government is for. It's there not just to be reactive (or completely unresponsive) - when it works well, it is proactive.
It sees a massive pandemic coming and it immediately sets about talking to researchers about how to build more vaccine-making facilities in advance, it talks to scientists about what training will be needed in that, and starts opening up new jobs in that.
It trains even more staff to be able to give jabs safely, and it orders lots for its population.
It turns to countries with good test and trace services, if necessary eats humble pie, and uses the app that was offered - freely - originally.

This is why we elect people - to look after us. They are meant to be working for us all, to save lives, to keep us all as well as possible. I'm truly sick of "well, what can they do?"
They could do a hell of a lot more, especially in classrooms. I'm beyond furious that our children are just being left to get ill. This is not acceptable. It really isn't.

Chillychangchoo · 31/07/2021 21:14

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

It’s a real condition but induced psychosomatically. The book titled the divided mind explains it perfectly.

It’s absolutely real of course but there is a psychosomatic component which people get really touchy about. I’m not sure what you want them to do other than suggest pacing/muscle strengthening. There isn’t any other treatment for it and they can’t magic one up out of thin air.

The effective treatment would be psychotherapy which most patients with ME refuse as they would rather live with a physical complaint than a mental one.

Pastrydame · 01/08/2021 00:23

I think the jury's still out on that. Hmm I don't have CFS but think it is a physical illness, why a post viral illness would be based in your psychology is not clear to me at all. It seems more likely to be an auto immune issue.

herecomesthsun · 01/08/2021 10:10

From September all teachers and CEV pupils should have been vaccinated,

Almost NO CEV pupils will have full protection by September.

GPs have now been told to pause rolling out the vaccine to children 12 - 15 (at least in England) because of indemnity issues.

remember it takes 2-3 months at least to have the 2 jabs and develop immunity.

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