Schools - we just have to bite the bullet...

[Warhertisuff]

It's completely futile to think we can stop Covid spreading through schools in the longer term. Who are we trying to kid? We may be angry that we are in this situation, but we are and we have to live with it.

It seems to be that it will be far better all round if Covid is just treated as we would the flu in schools. From September all teachers and CEV pupils should have been vaccinated, so we may as well just let it happen, with children off school when they are too unwell to attend. At least that way, disruption will be minimised and concentrated into a few weeks at the start of term.

Link for the second article I posted
bylinetimes.com/2021/07/08/governments-mass-infection-plan-pushed-by-great-barrington-declaration-lobbying-effort-to-end-covid-protections/

I mean… I don’t know. I’d just feel more reassured if a member of the JCVI with influence wasn’t backed by a network involved with spreading misinformation about health issues. But your mileage may vary.

@TheKeatingFive

No we don’t ban cars but we do have speed limits, safety measures and rules to mitigate against injury and death.

And we could do a huge amount more, from yearly testing to stricter penalties for transgressions to taking cars off the road entirely. But even though these things would lead to fewer deaths, we don’t do them.

But we do a lot not nothing. That is the comparison here. You can’t then add more whataboutery by plucking figurative measures from the air.

Ongoing changes are made to mitigations too… signs and speeds changed where accidents occur or near schools etc. (The latter is happening near us)

Even if it is not for Delta it still halves the transmission of Delta. If it halved transmission it halves higher transmission

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

Link for the second article I posted bylinetimes.com/2021/07/08/governments-mass-infection-plan-pushed-by-great-barrington-declaration-lobbying-effort-to-end-covid-protections/

I mean… I don’t know. I’d just feel more reassured if a member of the JCVI with influence wasn’t backed by a network involved with spreading misinformation about health issues. But your mileage may vary.

I agree.

Yes, some will scream ‘what about the children’ and ‘what about long covid’ but those with health anxiety will just have to work through it. I have mental health issues of my own but I don’t expect the rest of the world to shut down for it.

Clinically vulnerable children being hospitalised or worse and permanent disability from ME/ Long Covid are not "mental health issues".

@squid12346

From mid August it will only be the person that has covid that has to isolate. So schools can continue as normal in September. Hopefully the rule applies to the people that live with the person with covid... I.e. They have to isolate

Which is bonkers when the current dominant strain is so infectious.

I think lockdowns went too far without proper scrutiny of a long-term cost benefit analysis. Economic hardship significantly lowers life expectancy, we know this. The harms of all of these will be seen in decades to come, not years.

Yet I also find your statement very naive. My friend who had his second vaccine in May is now seriously ill with Covid. He's 35. He works from home and has not been anywhere deemed high risk.

A friend who he'd had close contact with him told him he (the friend) had tested positive so he decided to isolate. Not legally required to because they do not live together and test and trace haven't contacted him anyway. And now he's seriously ill. Even under current restrictions, if he had followed them he'd have been spreading it to others for a week or so. And so it continues...

• SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo Link for the second article I posted bylinetimes.com/2021/07/08/governments-mass-infection-plan-pushed-by-great-barrington-declaration-lobbying-effort-to-end-covid-protections/

I mean… I don’t know. I’d just feel more reassured if a member of the JCVI with influence wasn’t backed by a network involved with spreading misinformation about health issues. But your mileage may vary.*

This is the same argument used by our clinical authorities in the UK to deny UK children free chicken pox vaccines! Let them all get it then they can shield older people from getting shingles. 😒 Rather than, you know, using the decades old chicken pox and shingles vaccines that are standard in many developed countries. Children as a human shield, nice. And fuck the ones who actually die of the illness or are permanently disabled by it (happens with chicken pox too).

Absolutely nuts and totally unethical. Bit that's the NHS stance. It is a waste of space tbh.

@Chessie678

I agree with your post entirely. In particular, I think the following paragraph sums up really well why measures that disrupt and distort education in order to reduce spread somewhat are futile.

The best that those measures are likely to do is create a timing difference in when a child catches covid, which is not particularly helpful anyway as it is generally better to get it younger.

Long covid is a real risk to young people (due to working years ahead of them) but vaccines do not appear to help much (data not clear yet) - what young people need is low cases, as vaccines do not stop spread much either. The increased transmissibility of Delta has negated the transmission suppression of the vaccines.

If it is true that vaccines don't prevent long Covid, then given that it will be impossible to eradicate Covid, we'd have to implement draconian lockdown restrictions forever,
literally, to prevent children being exposed over their lifetimes. That's clearly impossible...

I’m glad that the rules are changing. Having hundreds of children off in my school which translated to a handful of positive cases was just ridiculous.

As a parent I am extremely concerned that the pandemic will Have a long lasting impact on the education and mental health of children.
As an education sector worker, the lack of support shown to teachers and LSA's and school support staff has been a truly telling experience. Staff had to fight for PPE, vaccines and the right not to work in truly frightening conditions around December.

I have worked all the way through lockdown supporting key workers children and many times I have questioned whether the paltry wages I receive are worth the risk of covid and long covid.
The direction this is all Young is truly worrying. We have had double vaccinated staff members recently who have had covid.
Staff members having covid twice, and we have also had many suffering with long covid.
They are now talking about asking schools to not isolate if I'm contact with a case.

@Warhertisuff

Long covid is a real risk to young people (due to working years ahead of them) but vaccines do not appear to help much (data not clear yet) - what young people need is low cases, as vaccines do not stop spread much either. The increased transmissibility of Delta has negated the transmission suppression of the vaccines.

If it is true that vaccines don't prevent long Covid, then given that it will be impossible to eradicate Covid, we'd have to implement draconian lockdown restrictions forever,
literally, to prevent children being exposed over their lifetimes. That's clearly impossible...

Actually, this is not the case. If we can get over 80% of the whole population (not just adults) vaccinated against Covid and the case numbers low before another nasty variant comes along and a decent tracing system and get good regular boosters in place, we can live with it only ever having tiny outbreaks and affecting very few people indeed , even going back to more or less "normal".

" If we can get over 80% of the whole population (not just adults) vaccinated against Covid and the case numbers low before another nasty variant comes along and a decent tracing system and get good regular boosters in place, we can live with it only ever having tiny outbreaks and affecting very few people indeed , even going back to more or less "normal"."

Exactly this.
We don't have to 'live with it' in the sense that we are now - with 1 in every 95 people walking around with it, so it's properly dangerous.
If we can get the vaccines out to children too, put in ventilation, keep sensible measures and not just open up without any precautions, then the numbers will fall to such an extent that, gradually, more areas of the country may have no cases at all - so children can go to school quite safely - and the areas where there are cases can be prioritised to reduce the transmission through test and trace.

That is our route to proper freedom again.

Actually, this is not the case. If we can get over 80% of the whole population (not just adults) vaccinated against Covid and the case numbers low before another nasty variant comes along and a decent tracing system and get good regular boosters in place, we can live with it only ever having tiny outbreaks and affecting very few people indeed , even going back to more or less "normal".

And how do you intend to reach this "utopia". Lots of "if only we did" this or that...

And what about the 0-12 CEV children?

I don't know what the answer is, but there are some children who just cannot take this risk and I don't want any of them to get severely ill or god forbid worse.

@frozendaisy

So kids take it home, perhaps infect working adults, then what? Do the infected adults still go to work regardless what they do?

School pupils live in society, not just in school.

It's complicated and I agree largely that self isolation contact can't continue. But it's not just that simple is it?

I understood it that a person isolated until a negative PCR, so instead of the 10 day isolation no matter what policy, we move to isolate,take test, negative then back to school or work. A test can often be taken on same day as being pinged with results following day, so 2 days inconvenience instead of 10. What will be interesting is those testing positive with no symptoms, will they isolate or just go to work and not tell anyone

@Warhertisuff

Actually, this is not the case. If we can get over 80% of the whole population (not just adults) vaccinated against Covid and the case numbers low before another nasty variant comes along and a decent tracing system and get good regular boosters in place, we can live with it only ever having tiny outbreaks and affecting very few people indeed , even going back to more or less "normal".

And how do you intend to reach this "utopia". Lots of "if only we did" this or that...

It is quite possible if the government had the will. We could offer the vaccine to all 12+. That is probably the only way we will get to over 80% vaccinated. Boosters are already being developed. Proper tracing could be done if the government was willing to fund an expansion of the disease control done by local authorities. The only unknown bit is the new variant but we can make this less likely by reducing case numbers in the meantime by, still wearing masks, introducing improved ventilation into schools over the summer holidays and holding back somewhat for a while longer on huge gatherings where people are in very close contact. It is eminently doable and probably will cost less than the money government is paying to private business to do things poorly.

It is quite possible if the government had the will.
We could offer the vaccine to all 12+.

It's got nothing to do with will its about having access to supply and having the logistics and staff to administer it aswell as the boosters for the over 50s/CEV at the same time. There isn't an never ending supply of vaccine and staff and vaccine sites available 24/7 to give it out. We can only give it out at the same speed as we aquire it, and at the moment the clinical need for the incoming batches is in the original 1-9 categories.

I do think a little bit it is about the government not being that arsed. I hate it but I think it is, sadly, the government we have.

Why does it have to be such polar opposite options? Isolation madness or let Covid run rampant?

Far more sensible to look at vaccinating younger people, investing in proper ventilation in schools and ensuring that parents who need to take time off work to keep a covid positive child at home have statutory protection.

There would be sufficient to offer to over 12s once the new Pfizer batches arrive in September by which time most adults will have had the chance to have both doses.
Also most 12-16 year olds will be in school which simplifies the logistics for actually vaccinating them. It could be done by vaccine buses visiting schools and/or busing classes of students at a time to a centre
It could all be done if there was a will to organise it (and hopefully not just left as another thing for teachers to have to organise.)

There would be sufficient to offer to over 12s once the new Pfizer batches arrive in September by which time most adults will have had the chance to have both doses.

The September batches are already allocated for the booster programme

and hopefully not just left as another thing for teachers to have to organise.)

Genuine question.....do teachers organise the HPV /boosters/ flu vaccines that are regularly given in school? Or is it done by the local CCG?

@Timeturnerplease

Why does it have to be such polar opposite options? Isolation madness or let Covid run rampant?

Far more sensible to look at vaccinating younger people, investing in proper ventilation in schools and ensuring that parents who need to take time off work to keep a covid positive child at home have statutory protection.

A million times this.

There appears to be no urgency in sorting out the delivery of vaccine to vulnerable 12-15s. Neither our tertiary level hospital team nor our GP practice have any idea when the vaccine would actually become available, you know, for the children to have administered.

The government guidelines now say to contact services if no-one has been in touch come late August.

They need their first vaccines NOW if they are going to have a decent level of immunity before going back to school.

The government are CUNTS.