Schools - we just have to bite the bullet...

[Warhertisuff]

It's completely futile to think we can stop Covid spreading through schools in the longer term. Who are we trying to kid? We may be angry that we are in this situation, but we are and we have to live with it.

It seems to be that it will be far better all round if Covid is just treated as we would the flu in schools. From September all teachers and CEV pupils should have been vaccinated, so we may as well just let it happen, with children off school when they are too unwell to attend. At least that way, disruption will be minimised and concentrated into a few weeks at the start of term.

Also I get arguments sort of you double jabbed you immune to isolate however I don't get kids unvaccinated are now excempt.

It's because they actively want kids to catch covid and isolation gets in the way of that.

It's also why schools will be removing any sort of bubbles/zones in September so that kids can mix freely with every year group in corridors and at break time. More mixing = more chance of catching it.

Some people think that kids catching covid is preferable to them being vaccinated against it, and it is them who are deciding policy.

Single cases.

Who is arguing? Why not ask the person who claimed the bubbles were stopped last September why they posted that which is who I was replying to? Yet the summer plans involve stopping the bubbles when they go back. So how can something that has already stopped be stopped

it will be far better all round if Covid is just treated as we would the flu in schools Except it really is not flu is it? I actually despair at posts like this seriously. Schools need extra measures, parents need assurances and those with CEV/Learning disabilities children and CEV family members need protecting. Or are we no longer "in this together"?

Schools are and always will be the weak link.
Everybody been arguing over face masks and vaccines etc all week, yet our children mix in school all day long, unvaccinated and maskless.

Children can carry a virus and spread it.

So how can something that has already stopped be stopped

Because they are conflating two different things.

The bubble system in schools refers to things like zones for year groups, staggered starts and lunch breaks, one way systems that means that a child from Y7 should theoretically never come into contact with a child from Y11, supposedly stopping covid spreading between year groups.

That is what is being scrapped from September. Kids from all year groups will mix freely.

Sending home bubbles was what was originally proposed last summer - cases in a bubble would send home that bubble, because they all mix with each other in corridors and break and lunchtimes. That was scrapped at the end of last September for secondary and replaced with sending home close contacts which involved looking at seating plans and sending home kids who sat within 2m of a positive case. So if I had a positive case in my class, I could tell who it was by the empty seats in the classroom centred around that kid. Maybe 10-12 kids out.

But that is also being scrapped from September.

Exacly, noble.

The aim now is for every child to get Covid, as quickly as possible, as this may get us closer to herd immunity.

Everyone whose vaccination is not fully effective (including the immunocompromised and vulnerable) the CEV children and those who are very ill for weeks / months / years but manage not to die are collateral damage.

@Whammyyammy

Schools are and always will be the weak link. Everybody been arguing over face masks and vaccines etc all week, yet our children mix in school all day long, unvaccinated and maskless.

Children can carry a virus and spread it.

Just search threads from least year or during lockdowns - all full of 'evidence' that children don't catch Covid / don't spread it / don't infect adults / teachers don't get ill.

Everyone who works in schools has ALWAYS known what you state - but everyone has been looking the other way and going 'lalalalala'.

Now the government has got everyone so fed up that they have realised they are now able to do what they wanted to all along - let schools spread the virus exponentially, and take the collateral damage of illness and death.

Not every CEV or CV child can have the vaccine.

The only one allowed to children over 12 years old at the moment is Pfizer. The Pfizer/Moderna ones have rare side effects of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the membrane around the heart).

So children with congenital heart disease can't have the vaccination (unless they also have other vulnerabilities that move them into the 'benefits outweigh the risk category) at the moment as they, potentially, are susceptible to these side effects. It's like the AZ not being offered to under 40s because of the minute risk of clots. But there isn't an alternative for the CHD kids at the moment so they'll have to continue taking their chances. DS's heart consultant at least managed to reassure us when Covid started that he's probably at no more risk than the average kid at the moment given sensible precautions (which have now been taken away unfortunately). We just hope the peak comes quick so that, when he has to return to school, it's on a downward trend. We can isolate him a bit in the holidays but September...it feels a bit like pot luck for him at the moment.

The problem is that 8 out of 1000 babies born each year have a congenital heart disease - some aren't detected until adulthood or until something goes wrong like a collapse. So a vaccination that could, even remotely, cause more problems with defects really needs to be very carefully analysed before even supposedly 'heathy' kids are given it.

he's probably at no more risk than the average kid at the moment given sensible precautions

I don't understand what you mean? Is he at no more risk than the average kid if he catches covid (which is good news) or is he more at risk than the average kid therefore should take sensible precautions to avoid covid (which may involve not going to school in September)?

@megletthesecond

They'd better scrap attendance awards pretty sharpish then.

Absolutely... and I think they already have? None at our school this year 😅

@squid12346

From mid August it will only be the person that has covid that has to isolate. So schools can continue as normal in September. Hopefully the rule applies to the people that live with the person with covid... I.e. They have to isolate

And this will bring chaos! Six y6 pupils tested positive yesterday, more bound to come from that - if it is just left to let rip, what will be the consequences? Local secondary schools have 50+ pupils isolating at home with Covid at the moment - it is madness.

@SqueakyPeaks

I think the problem is that your flu analogy doesn't work. Covid isn't flu. It may cause organ damage which frequently persists for months in young people with no underlying health issues or co-morbidities.

If Covid was so damaging to children, then surely JCVI would have recommended all under 12s be vaccinated ASAP, and pushing to lower this further.

The decision whether to vaccinate all children remains under review. It could change in the light of new data.

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross

So what is the alternative plan? If we don’t go down the route suggested in the OP, how do we manage Covid in the school environment? Given that the current systems of bouncing in and out of remote learning, and isolating huge numbers of perfectly healthy young people is clearly not a viable proposition going forward, what do we do instead?

I'd like to hear a realistic alternative plan too. Accepting that Covid will go through schools is pretty shit... but what's the alternative? We can't suppress Delta to nothing using vaccines alone. Either we accept kids will be exposed to Covid over the summer and into the autumn term, or we do exactly the same, just over a longer period as we fight a futile battle, with their education damaged further as a result.

If Covid was so damaging to children, then surely JCVI would have recommended all under 12s be vaccinated ASAP, and pushing to lower this further

Unlikely they would recommend under 12s be given something that has had no clinical trials done on that age bracket.

So why do you not want to wait until the CEV children have been double vaccinated?

About 2% of children with Covid will get long Covid ( moderate not extreme models). That's 3-4 children in an average primary school and up to 20 in a secondary school. They could have organ damage as well as long term fatigue. We just don't know enough about Covid in the young to say it is fine to let it rip.

I think all over 12's should be offered a vaccine. We need at least 80% of the whole population to be immune to get anything like herd immunity. We won't get enough adults so will need to vaccinate teens too.

I have a 14 year old and I'd be happy for him to be vaccinated in theory. One thing that gives me pause though is how the vaccine interacts with other vaccines and whether that could have unknown affects.

He just had a vaccination (MMR?) a couple of weeks ago and has another to come at the start of year 10. To add the Covid vaccine into the mix feels like a lot in a shortish time period.

I realise my feelings may just be my feelings though. Have any scientists considered the mid teen range and the other vaccines they have in this period? Is vaccine overload even a thing (other than in my head)?

"Yes, some will scream ‘what about the children’ and ‘what about long covid’ but those with health anxiety will just have to work through it. I have mental health issues of my own but I don’t expect the rest of the world to shut down for it."
Health anxiety sounds like the real risk of long term disability is mainly in someone's head. 10% kids long covid - it's worth screaming about and awful that we assume nothing can be done about it. Other countries have at least put some mitigations in during the pandemic, such as ventilation to try to make things safer, rather than saying "oh well".

Well I am resigning myself to my year 13 next year child to face further disruption. Her school has fared pretty well but every time a Teacher was off it felt like their teachers were pulled to cover.
I feel that it is only a matter of time before Covid enters the house with 3 dc. Hope immunosupressed dh who had AZ will be ok.

No, it is only about 2% of kids with Kong Covid as best they can model it for now, but even that is pretty bad

Long Covid obviously!

"We can't suppress Delta to nothing using vaccines alone."

Well, yes we can... that's the point of them. Look at anything else that's been eradicated and that is exactly what we did. (Though covid is far, far more contagious than most other illnesses), especially the Delta variant.

We can't if we're refusing to vaccinate huge groups of people and letting others go around half-vaccinated with a vaccine that needs two shots though.

@noblegiraffe

So why do you not want to wait until the CEV children have been double vaccinated?

I'm not sure how much difference that would make.... Numbers will likely be uncomfortably high in September whatever is done, and many of those who are CEV aren't convinces the vaccine is adequately protective.

So your OP has now moved from

"From September all teachers and CEV pupils should have been vaccinated, so we may as well just let it happen"

To "Even though CEV pupils won't have been vaccinated, we may as well just let it happen"

As expected.