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Mandatory vaccines for care workers now law.

320 replies

MercyBooth · 20/07/2021 23:46

Big Brother Watch
@BigBrotherWatch
·
2h
Police cars revolving lightBREAKING

Mandatory vaccines for care workers is now law. Millions more workers will be affected.

The House of Lords passed the new law after just 90 minutes debate, with a regret motion noting there is insufficient evidence for it and that the severity of impact is unknown.

twitter.com/BigBrotherWatch/status/1417573871130234883?s=20

OP posts:
ZednotZee · 21/07/2021 07:19

@berrylands

If you believe that the decision to mandate covid vaccines beginning within the SC sector has been predicated on a desire to uphold the health of the elderly, whom the policy makers literally threw under the bus causing unavoidable death and morbidity at the start of this whole shitshow...

Well that's what you believe I suppose.

unidentifed · 21/07/2021 07:20

Good. And hope they are mandatory for many other sectors too.

Mum21031608 · 21/07/2021 07:22

I find it scary that people can be forced to have the vaccine against their will.

Do people really think it’s as black and white as “have the jab or leave?” Don’t you think that the care workers need their jobs to keep a roof over their heads and eat? Just like the rest of us do.

Where and what are all these news jobs that they can just walk in to?

It’s horrifying.

Yes, we are mandated to have specific vaccines to enter nursing but they are vaccines that have been around for any, many, many years so don’t cause the same level of ‘fear and worry’ that a new Covid jab does.

They aren’t comparable.

I had my nursing jabs with no worries about their safety at all but although I’ve had my Covid jabs, I will admit I was very nervous about it, as were a lot of my colleagues.

In fact three nurses on my ward refused to have it because they weren’t satisfied it was safe due to how quickly it was produced and how there is no research of its long term effects. The rest of us fully support their decision to make their own choice.

As has been said, Care Workers are easy targets compared to Nurses because we have unions to fight for us.

The thought of nurses being threatened with the sack unless they have something injected into their body that they didn’t want is just awful and barbaric. I just can’t see it happening.

ZednotZee · 21/07/2021 07:23

@unidentifed

Would you support mandatory covid vaccines, plus regular boosters for everybody excepting the clinically exempt?

I'd be interested to find out the current public appetite for such a policy

NightOwl19 · 21/07/2021 07:25

@ForeverAlone1987

I thought the vaccine was to prevent yourself getting seriously ill with covid? I dont think this vaccine stops you spreading it. So shouldnt it be down to the care workers as to whether they risk getting seriously ill? Someone correct me if i am wrong with my first sentence, just incase ive completely gotten it wrong lol
In my local hospital there are patients in ITU who are double vaccinated and the numbers are only increasing.

The promises that the vaccines are ment to deliver aren't coming through but just not being publicly reported as honestly as it should be.

MaxNormal · 21/07/2021 07:25

It's going to have a huge impact and staffing levels, which are already an issue. Its a badly paid and demanding role so a lot of care workers will resign.
No-one to replace them either, since we are post Brexit.

There is going to be real risk, suffering and neglect as a result.

ZednotZee · 21/07/2021 07:25

@Mum21031608

A fifth of nurses currently work outside of the NHS.

So yes, nurses will choose between their job or the jab. Exactly the same way that carers will need to.

I have spoken with the RCN and they will offer no support at union level to oppose this.

bigvig · 21/07/2021 07:31

Why not make it mandatory to have had the vacinne or have natural immunity - which lasts longer and is more adaptable to different variants (yes it is -it is only very limited studies completed using very dubious methods for a limited amount of time which suggest differently). Oh I know because no one makes any money from natural immunity.

unidentifed · 21/07/2021 07:38

[quote ZednotZee]@unidentifed

Would you support mandatory covid vaccines, plus regular boosters for everybody excepting the clinically exempt?

I'd be interested to find out the current public appetite for such a policy[/quote]

If we have a hope in hell of overcoming this thing in the next year or two, yep. I plan to get the boosters and I imagine professionals in my sector, who works with vulnerable children and adults, will be required to as well should they wish to keep their job.

nannynick · 21/07/2021 07:52

How are they defining Care Worker?

If they do not define that very closely then other people could fall under that legislation that was unintended, such as nursery staff, as they provide care for vulnerable people (children).

Mum21031608 · 21/07/2021 08:08

How are they defining Care Worker?
If they do not define that very closely then other people could fall under that legislation that was unintended, such as nursery staff, as they provide care for vulnerable people (children).

That’s a very good point.... how about dentists? Opticians?

The thing is, if the NHS basically tells all of its staff that unless they are jabbed they must leave, then how dangerous a service would we be left with?

We seem to be focusing on just nurses but what about everyone else?

Doctors of all grades
Surgeons
Radiologists
Health Care Assistants
Physiotherapists
Kitchen staff
Ophthalmologists
Mental health workers
Theatre nurses
Midwives
Cleaners
Specialist nurses
Anaesthetists
ITU staff

......and the many, many more positions that involve patient contact?

Do people really think the NHS is going to risk losing many members of staff in all those roles when they are already struggling so much with the Covid pressures alongside huge staff shortages already?!

herecomesthsun · 21/07/2021 08:12

Surgeons etc already have to have Hep B vaccinations, you know. Mandatory vaccination in order to work is not entirely novel.

Iquitit · 21/07/2021 08:13

I've had my vaccination and gladly, but I have concerns over all of this, more so in light of the fact that from August if I live with or have had close contact with a positive case, I'll be expected to go to work, having done an LFT daily, or until I get symptoms, or until I test positive on my weekly PCR test.

As the guidance will have been changed, I will not be paid if I don't go to work, and risk disciplinary action because it'll be considered unauthorised until the point I test positive, I have already seen demands that despite the guidance changing on this to the above, with the possible concequences for the workers, we should isolate anyway because of our "duty of care".

The same "duty of care" that people are using to demand care workers are vaccinated.
How exactly are you going to blame care workers now, when those working are double vaccinated as decreed, yet covid goes through homes again and people die, because staff are working while being a risk, and that's been also mandated by government?

How can anyone possibly think, that in light of the above policy, any of this is about protecting the vulnerable? We have been now pushed into a situation of knowingly risking infecting our clients or risk losing income or employment all together.

It's about the government using this as a sidestep from providing proper funding and support to care workers to care for their residents safely, across the board, not just during covid, and dodging the nasty questions about their duty of care with regards to the scandal last year of discharging untested people into settings full of vulnerable people, lack of PPE, lack of financial support for isolating workers, lack of training, just about zero accountability of care providing companies and government when things go wrong and now this policy of basically working when you're a known risk.
Add to that the fact that the country is opening up, that will increase the risk, and that unvaccinated visitors are being welcomed back into care settings, and you have a recipe for disaster again. If it truly were about protecting the vulnerable, then all feasible measures would be being taken, not one, cherry picked and whipping the public into a frenzy about.

The other issue I have is that no one has seemed to even consider why uptake might be low in the care sector. Vaccination for anything has never been an expectation of a care job, I've never (and I'm not the only one by a long shot) been even asked about my vaccination status for anything, it's never been a consideration before, therefore knowledge and expectations are completely different for the care sector than for nursing or medical settings. It's never been seen as necessary to protect either the workers or the residents.
Access to flu vaccination for example was until recently, a lottery. Rather than seen as important and lifesaving and part of an overall duty of care, it was more like if you're on shift and the nurse has a spare, you can have it. I couldn't attend to have my flu vaccine this year, I have been pinged between my own surgery, the surgery that covers the home and my employer when I've enquired - because it's just not a 'thing' in care work. There's no mechanism, no policy that deals with this like in medical settings.
Lack of knowledge and awareness is imo, the biggest issue here, where uptake is concerned, and comparison with nursing or medical settings is like comparing apples and oranges.
But instead of a targeted campaign of education and information regarding vaccination, and a comprehensive program to vaccinate care workers and clients against anything, including covid, that are communicable and dangerous to the vulnerable, we've got a mandatory vaccination with a vaccine that's been around less than a year and society shouting that unless we dive on the needle willingly shouting how blessed we are to do the job, we're selfish and in the wrong job.

Infection control training and provision is woefully inadequate in social care, provision of PPE until covid, was based on cost rather than need, and is in abundance now because it's being supplied by the NHS, it should have already been in place, it should have already been a priority, it wasn't, and the care providers who have locked away PPE, only to be used in the most dire circumstances, have escaped being accountable for this, yet again, because it's been overshadowed by "selfish" care workers and vaccination.

The rot in social care is from the top, and this is a step too far for some care workers. I for one am sick to the back teeth of people bleating on about duty of care for me, when those above me, the governing bodies and care providers are failing so massively around care in general and covid.

It's easier though to point the finger at the bottom of the pile and successfully divert public attention away from the bigger issues that are having far more impact on quality of care, because they'll cost money. The money for covid vaccination has already been spent.
And because of the way care workers are perceived by society in general, yet again, our worries, opinions and concerns, based in real actual working knowledge of what we and our residents face every day, is being shouted down. Us, and the residents, don't have a voice, and if we dare to stick our head above the parapet, we're shot down in a sea of selfish care workers and vaccination cries.
It's not good enough.

Also, due to the above points, this is likely to lead to people leaving an already understaffed industry, and put care standards more at risk than they already are.
No one is listening when care workers are saying they've had enough, they need more support, I for one feel blackmailed into accepting anything other people decide to place upon me (low wages, poor training, poor working conditions, lack of equipment and supplies, lack of adequate staffing, mandatory vaccination and the blame when it all goes wrong) under the guise of duty of care and you should do it because you love it.
Workers like me, fully vaccinated, are hanging on by a thread right now. Exhausted from the measures we need to work under, from being short staffed in general and then more so due to isolating colleagues (and no the answer is not remove isolation, it's bloody well provide enough staff, which is for care providers and government to do by improving conditions) and we're going to burn out and leave too, because let's face it, I can go and stack shelves in Aldi for more money and less public blame than what I'm doing now. I can love my job all I like, but I shouldn't be expected to put my physical and mental health on the line, or my financial (almost!) Stability on the line to protect others when there's alternatives that could be in place, but care providers profit and government coffers being full is deemed as more important.

The people who will really suffer though are those who are in need of the care, I can leave. They can't.

ZednotZee · 21/07/2021 08:14

@herecomesthsun

Yes, we know and its been discussed at length already.

berrylands · 21/07/2021 08:15

[quote ZednotZee]@berrylands

If you believe that the decision to mandate covid vaccines beginning within the SC sector has been predicated on a desire to uphold the health of the elderly, whom the policy makers literally threw under the bus causing unavoidable death and morbidity at the start of this whole shitshow...

Well that's what you believe I suppose.[/quote]
I didn't say I believe that.
I said I believe requiring vaccination to work with the public during a pandemic is the right decision

HummingBeeBox · 21/07/2021 08:15

Whilst I disagree with forcing people to get the vaccine, care work feels different. I worry about those who can't get the vaccine though, or for who getting the vaccine is too much of a risk for them. Where do they stand?

mog27 · 21/07/2021 08:21

Good luck to all the double jabbed care workers who'll now have to carry the extra workload when people start getting dismissed for not having the vaccine. In a sector already struggling it's the recipe for a perfect storm.

ZednotZee · 21/07/2021 08:23

@berrylands

You said it was a decision based upon the protection of public health, which it very demonstrably is not given the history of decision making with social care up to this point in the pandemic.

DufferMum · 21/07/2021 08:30

Meh, just have the vaccine. it really is a no brainer!

MaxNormal · 21/07/2021 09:01

Care home workers are predominantly women, working class, and in certain areas a high percentage of them are ethnic minorities.

I get a very uncomfortable feeling about how easily people dismiss their rights to bodily integrity. And yes I know people will say it's a choice and they can leave, but the threat of losing one's job is a choice not freely made and to my mind free and informed consent is vital for all medical interventions.

I could be wrong but I don't feel an industry staffed predominantly by white middle and upper class males would have had the same criteria imposed. In fact only yesterday the Speaker confirmed that there would be no vaccine passports required for the House of Commons.

Ultimately, this policy will harm those it's ostensibly designed to protect as detailed for more eloquently than me by @Iquitit .

vodkaredbullgirl · 21/07/2021 09:09

Hmm Can see this going down well.

SprayedWithDettol · 21/07/2021 09:17

To those who don’t want the vaccine - do you have or have you had family in a care home? Have you seen how vulnerable they are? Have you seen what happens when a virus rips through a care home?

I’m just glad my darling father died a year before the pandemic. He was in a care home with end stage dementia. He was non verbal aphasic, unable to swallow at the end but he was my father and I loved him. His life meant everything to me and I wanted him protected until the end. Luckily he was. My heart breaks for all people with family members and friends in care homes.

Toesies · 21/07/2021 09:32

I could be wrong but I don't feel an industry staffed predominantly by white middle and upper class males would have had the same criteria imposed. In fact only yesterday the Speaker confirmed that there would be no vaccine passports required for the House of Commons.

@MaxNormal ... Like surgeons? (Although they aren't dominated as much by males any more.)

MaxNormal · 21/07/2021 09:38

Toesies if you're referring to the HepB vaccination, that is predominantly for protection of medical staff who come into contact with blood and other bodily fluids.

It's also something said staff would have been aware of as a requirement prior to training for and accepting the role.

Finally, it's guidance rather than law for the Hep B vaccine, so making it an actual law is not precedented.

But my main point remains that this is going to lead to a worsening of the care home staffing crises and it's the very vulnerable residents who will suffer.

bumbleymummy · 21/07/2021 09:43

@DufferMum

Meh, just have the vaccine. it really is a no brainer!
Give up bodily autonomy or lose your job.

How often are they going to have to be vaccinated to keep their job? Annually? 6 monthly?