France pulls out the big guns!

[NotPregnantJustChubs]

I live in France and Macron has just made a speech saying that from the end of July, vaccination or a negative test is going to be compulsory for cultural and entertainment venues. From August, it’ll be compulsory for cafes and restaurants too. This applies to all 12+.

PCR tests will become paid as of September, to encourage vaccination.

I’m already vaccinated, thankfully, and I do think it’s necessary to contain the delta variant. But wowza, I’m waiting to hear the backlash in the morning. Macron is up for reelection next year as well, they must be very desperate to contain this…

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

Isn’t there a medical exemption? A proper one, not a U.K. one.

The thing about choice is that we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. Nobody gets exactly what they want without compromise somewhere and going back to pre pandemic now isn’t an option. If you don’t restrict things to vaccinated only, then you need restrictions on what opens or you need strong border restrictions and a zero covid strategy.

Exactly. But strong border restrictions isn't just about keeping red list countries out, as people seem to think. It can also apply to British residents not being allowed anywhere. I have a family member in the Netherlands and I can't visit them either because the UK is now classed as "an area with a variant of high concern". That is absolutely fine for now, but I fail to see how this can go on for ever. Clearly other countries don't want their residents to be banned everywhere and thus have to encourage vaccination in whatever way they can.

I'm sorry that you interpret my use of the confused smiley to demonstrate my confusion as passive-aggressive. I completely disagree, along with your suggestion that my posts may have included put-downs and/or digs.

If this discussion is causing you so much stress and fear, maybe its best to reduce the time you spend on the Coronavirus topic, as its all continuing to go round in circles.

If this discussion is causing you so much stress and fear, maybe its best to reduce the time you spend on the Coronavirus topic, as its all continuing to go round in circles

I'll pretend that's concern not faux-concern. I don't post as much as I used to, but I do sometimes feel it's necesary to remind people that not everyone can be vaccinated, and what the reality of being on the sharp end of this stuff is. Don't worry about me, I'll manage my own mental health. But I am going to start pointing out if I feel responses are uneccessarily personal, hostile or patronising.

BFMTV (rolling news channel) poll gives a bit of insight into national sentiment:

58% of those polled in favour of health pass requirement for restaurants, etc.

66% of those polled in favour of pass for leisure/cultural facilities.

76% in favour of mandatory vaccination for HCPs in certain roles.

www.bfmtv.com/societe/sondage-bfmtv-58-des-francais-favorables-a-l-extension-du-pass-sanitaire-pour-les-cafes-et-restaurants_AN-202107130329.html

I really wish people would stop saying choice is being removed - it really isn’t. Clear choices are being given. They could be making vaccines mandatory, they could be saying that only vaccinated people can access these things.

Compared to a full lockdown where none of these things are accessible at all, to anyone regardless of vaccination status, there are choices here. And all of the threads here where people say they won’t isolate if the app tells them to, or people calling others stupid for having the app to begin with, it’s clear we can’t rely on people taking personal responsibility,

I don’t want another full lockdown but the U.K. approach makes that far more likely than countries putting measures like this in place. There will be consequences for whatever policy a government makes. Who’s right will be clear in time. I’m not sure this thread will age well once we end up locked down again.

@SinkGirl

I really wish people would stop saying choice is being removed - it really isn’t. Clear choices are being given. They could be making vaccines mandatory, they could be saying that only vaccinated people can access these things.

Compared to a full lockdown where none of these things are accessible at all, to anyone regardless of vaccination status, there are choices here. And all of the threads here where people say they won’t isolate if the app tells them to, or people calling others stupid for having the app to begin with, it’s clear we can’t rely on people taking personal responsibility,

I don’t want another full lockdown but the U.K. approach makes that far more likely than countries putting measures like this in place. There will be consequences for whatever policy a government makes. Who’s right will be clear in time. I’m not sure this thread will age well once we end up locked down again.

Exactly. I don't currently have the choice to go see my 82-year-old father who's going blind and living on his own. I will continue to not have that choice unless more people get vaccinated. And people are crying about not being able to go to a restaurant ? Fucks sake. Get your priorities straight.

@LoudNowSing Sometimes on MN it seems to me that the only stress or pain is suffered by people who do not want to take vaccines. Not being able to see your family is apparently unimportant. Hope you can go see him soon. My mom is younger and will have to manage for a bit, I guess. But if we are still in this position next year, I will likely be leaving the UK ( not that anybody will care:)

@MareofBeasttown Thank you. We haven't seen him in nearly a year and my DD keeps asking when we can go. His admin is pilling up too because he can no longer do it himself.
I hope you get to see your mother soon too.

I'm British and live in France. I couldn't see my (vaccinated) FIL in the care home for weeks both during and after lockdown - cases of covid were still being reported in care homes despite no visitors. I do believe vaccination is important for protection for all (DH, DC and I all had vaccine). We have all missed enough the last 18 months, we want to get back to a life that doesn't involve living on reduced measures. Those that do not want the vaccine are within their rights, of course, but should accept the restrictions that come with their choice, whether that is alternative employment, testing before leisure activities or staying at home.

I've been a French resident for over a decade. I've definitely seen a god-complex around doctors, and the medical institution in general. If your GP is sympathetic and understanding of, say, a trauma or phobia based need for exemption from the vaccine, then you should be fine, they'll take care of you. But if your GP isn't on board, I think it'll just be tough luck- unless you can find yourself a new GP with a better attitude, and good luck with ever finding a new GP who is taking on new patients. This could be a real challenge for some people needing official exemption.

Also, regarding the elderly, especially in care homes or relying on care at home: it's been mentioned before on this thread but seems to be being ignored by some; forcing this through will, inevitably, mean that at least some people leave the care sector. It's already a sector that struggles to get adequate numbers of employees.

From the POV of those elderly and vulnerable- what is better? To be cared for by someone unvaccinated, therefore who brings a certain risk of infection (though they do mask and sanitize etc, carers don't ignore these rules at all)? Or, to not have enough carers available, so that certain daily needs are simply not taken care of? And, bearing in mind that even a double vaccinated person is not risk free either, even though it's reduced.

Add to this another complicating factor: my cleaning lady also works as an at home carer for some elderly people. She has a couple of clients who are over 80 and refused the vaccine. Yet she faces losing her job if she doesn't vaccinate to protect those people who themselves chose not to be vaccinated.

I agree that there is no obvious or easy solution to the situation, but there are complexities here that can easily get brushed over.

@LittleRed53

From the POV of those elderly and vulnerable- what is better? To be cared for by someone unvaccinated, therefore who brings a certain risk of infection (though they do mask and sanitize etc, carers don't ignore these rules at all)?

What would happen if a paid carer also couldn't wear a mask?

The other factor that people are overlooking is that while the vaccines might reduce transmission, they by no means provide sterilising immunity. Plenty of double-vaccinated people have been contracting covid.
So having a fully vaccinated complement of care home staff won't guarantee anything for the residents.

This is why I don't see the point of covid passes. If the vaccine provides full sterilising immunity then they're not needed as the vaccinated are protected. If it does not, they are equally pointless as the vaccinated can still spread it. If the true goal was safety then everyone would be required to test.

@Frenchfancy I think that it is important to understand the context of this ruling compared to other rules in France which are different to the UK. Vaccination is compulsory for children in order to go to school. You also cannot go to sports clubs or organised trips without vaccinations. Healthcare workers already have 4 compulsory vaccinations, this will just be another one. It is compulsory to carry photo id, so adding a pass isn't that big a deal.
And I would add to this that mask wearing has been compulsory in France - there are no exceptions. If you don't want to wear a mask then you can't go in the shop, the bus, the metro whatever. All the children at my DS's school and my DD's uni were wearing masks - even in the primary school - in the classroom and in the playground. What the French require is a rule and then they will follow it. Now masks are no longer compulsory in the street, few people wear them there, if the rule changes they will go back to covering up.

@DumplingsAndStew I don't know. I don't know, or even know of, a single mask exempt person among my acquaintance- it's very very rare to even see someone not wearing a mask in situations where it's required (even if many don't wear it correctly). My impression from MN is that there are an awful lot more people in the UK seeking or needing a mask exemption than in France, but that could just be because MN isn't a real representation of the UK population.

It feels like a bit of a straw man argument though, as whoever can't wear a mask and works in the care sector has already had that issue for over a year now, and surely that's been decided upon one way or another between them and their employer by now. I don't know what the outcome was for those people as I don't know anyone in that situation.

But as I said, that's been an existing issue long since decided on. The mandatory vaccine is the new thing being added on top. I hope the government have thought about mask-exempt carers while working out details of implementation with this.

The other factor that people are overlooking is that while the vaccines might reduce transmission, they by no means provide sterilising immunity.

Nobody has overlooked it because ever claimed vaccinations provide “sterilizing immunity”, anywhere - care-home, hospital, bar or on the street…

It’s all about reducing the risk of transmission…

I doubt any country on earth has the capacity to test all it’s care workers, let alone every member of the public who wants to socialize in public everybody on a continuous 48-72 hour basis (and even doing that is no guarantee they are “sterile” an hour or two after the test).

I also do not know of anyone not able or exempt from wearing a mask here in Germany or anybody that has an official document to state their need not to be able to do so .It wouldn't matter anyway because you would be reprimanded every where you would go.It would not be worth it .Everyone has to wear an FFP 2 mask indoors/in public for months Nobody likes it but everybody complies.

@KatharinaRosalie

You need to understand the context. First, as FrenchFancy says above, several vaccines are already mandatory in France. This is not a new concept. Or similarly, I need to get a medical exam and produce a doctor's note each time I want to for example join a running club or participate in a race. Don't want the government deciding over my body and telling me what to do - then I just can't go.

Also, France is the land of medical exemptions - if your doctor agrees that you have such a needle phobia that you really can't be vaccinated, I'm sure you'll get a prescription for free tests. But I agree that taxpayer should not be paying for someone who simply prefers not to do their part to get us out of this pandemic but wants to go to a cafe.

And I think you also have to understand how severe the restrictions were here at some point. Going back to that, because some people were simply sitting on their arses and could not be bothered to book their appointment, is not an option for the majority of French want to think about.

Hear hear.

@schnubbins Yeah, that's been my experience in France, too.

I have always found it interesting the numbers of people in the UK (according to Mumsnet threads) who claim they are exempt/ 'cannot' wear a mask/ know someone who passed out wearing a mask/ equate mask wearing as tantamount to torture. Like PP have said, here in France everyone wears a mask. Everyone. Including all children from primary school upwards, at school, all day every day.
Why are people in the UK so very different in their mask-wearing capabilities from
people in France?!
The more you wear one, the more you just get used to it and pretty much forget it's there.

Also in the UK medics have needed Hep B certificates to practice for years now.

Likewise, for years, select countries in Africa and South America have required visitors to be vaccinated against yellow fever.

There's a choice, get the vaccination or don't work/ don't travel.

@TulipWoodpecker

I have always found it interesting the numbers of people in the UK (according to Mumsnet threads) who claim they are exempt/ 'cannot' wear a mask/ know someone who passed out wearing a mask/ equate mask wearing as tantamount to torture. Like PP have said, here in France everyone wears a mask. Everyone. Including all children from primary school upwards, at school, all day every day. Why are people in the UK so very different in their mask-wearing capabilities from people in France?! The more you wear one, the more you just get used to it and pretty much forget it's there.

I do wear one. But can't say I am used to it. I hate it. Can't see properly. Can't hear properly. Get too hot and skin gets red and sore. I just try and avoid situations where I need to wear one as much as possible.

Likewise, for years, select countries in Africa and South America have required visitors to be vaccinated against yellow fever

This isn't the best analogy. You have a genuinely very good chance of dying from yellow fever should you get it symptomatically.
Additionally, as the vaccines themselves are quite rough you can easily get exempted. I don't think they're even allowed for the over 60s if memory serves.

Finally it's literally just a case of getting your vaccine certificate or exemption from a doctor. It's a piece of paper to travel to one of a tiny handful of countries, it's not a vast electronic surveillence system in order to participate in normal economic and social activities.

Additionally, as the vaccines themselves are quite rough you can easily get exempted.

Well in the case of yellow fever if you want to be continue to be employed in certain lines of work the vaccine continued to be mandatory for certain roles, even in the UK.

I don't think they're even allowed for the over 60s if memory serves.

Well color me surprised….there must be some exemptions that allow the yellow fever vaccination to be administered for over 60s working in certain jobs…

@TulipWoodpecker

I have always found it interesting the numbers of people in the UK (according to Mumsnet threads) who claim they are exempt/ 'cannot' wear a mask/ know someone who passed out wearing a mask/ equate mask wearing as tantamount to torture. Like PP have said, here in France everyone wears a mask. Everyone. Including all children from primary school upwards, at school, all day every day. Why are people in the UK so very different in their mask-wearing capabilities from people in France?! The more you wear one, the more you just get used to it and pretty much forget it's there.

So where are the people who can’t wear one? My kids can’t unless you staple it to their head - they have no concept of what masks are and won’t keep one on. They attend a specialist school where the vast majority of children couldn’t wear a mask.

I know absolutely loads of children and some adults who can’t wear a mask, so I’m very suspicious of this sort of comment. Either it’s an exaggeration, or those with certain disabilities have been shut away in their homes for over a year - which is it?

I know absolutely loads of children and some adults who can’t wear a mask, so I’m very suspicious of this sort of comment. Either it’s an exaggeration, or those with certain disabilities have been shut away in their homes for over a year - which is it?

Well I don’t know where those who can’t/won’t where a mask have gone but judging by what I’ve seen when out and about over the last 18 months, and that includes what appears to be all the 5-7 year olds in our little village school running around the playground on a daily basis, all wearing masks, there isn’t much exaggeration going on.

Having also spent some time working in the UK in that period it does seem to me at least that there has been a significant difference in the mask wearing culture…..