France pulls out the big guns!

[NotPregnantJustChubs]

I live in France and Macron has just made a speech saying that from the end of July, vaccination or a negative test is going to be compulsory for cultural and entertainment venues. From August, it’ll be compulsory for cafes and restaurants too. This applies to all 12+.

PCR tests will become paid as of September, to encourage vaccination.

I’m already vaccinated, thankfully, and I do think it’s necessary to contain the delta variant. But wowza, I’m waiting to hear the backlash in the morning. Macron is up for reelection next year as well, they must be very desperate to contain this…

@DumplingsAndStew

Removing the rights of someone based on the fact they are just unvaccinated...

What rights are being removed if you are unvaccinated? The right to go into a cafe without having a test done first? Any business has the right to refuse someone service. Testing is an alternative to vaccination.

Yes. Exactly this. For example, some businesses refuse entry for jeans or trainers - if they have a certain dress code. As is their right as a private business.

Yes. Exactly this. For example, some businesses refuse entry for jeans or trainers - if they have a certain dress code. As is their right as a private business.

Kind of of unbelievable that you would compare clothing with injecting a substance into your body.

People don't have health anxiety over smart trousers. They don't have a phobia about putting on neat shoes. They don't worry about the long term effects of wearing a shirt.

But the tests are not free

So?
Some people have to suck up additional costs for all sorts of reasons - family size, widowed, disabled, area they live in, whether they drive or not, storm blows down their garden fence, all sorts of reasons.

If you can't have the vaccine for medical reasons, an exemption should be granted. Anything else, and it really is a choice.

@DumplingsAndStew

But the tests are not free

So?
Some people have to suck up additional costs for all sorts of reasons - family size, widowed, disabled, area they live in, whether they drive or not, storm blows down their garden fence, all sorts of reasons.

If you can't have the vaccine for medical reasons, an exemption should be granted. Anything else, and it really is a choice.

So what is your justification for the tests not being free? To coerce people into getting the vaccination? Or to punish the worried poor? Should tests be free for people who have medical exemption? If so, why should people that are too scared to have the vaccine have to pay?

Also, no one should be facing additional costs to go to a cafe FFS.

Phobias are many and varied. It's actually very likely that somebody does have a phobia of wearing certain clothing.

Talking of fear and distress. There is no way it's possible to deny the immorality of putting vulnerable elderly and disabled in a position of unnecessary risk.

This week has seen report after report in the media on the impact of so called 'freedom day' on the elderly and on the CV and CEV.

Patients in hospital and residents of care homes don't have any choice in being vulnerable and in need of (real) care.

This week has seen report after report in the media on the impact of so called 'freedom day' on the elderly and on the CV and CEV.

The mental health impact. Obviously there's also the physical risks.

So what is your justification for the tests not being free?

I never said I did justified them being free. Believe it or not, I have no sway over French health care or politics.

But if that's the rules they've come up with, I don't think you are being penalised or victimised in any way. Because you still have choice.

@usuallydormant

I prefer to vaccinate my child than risk COVID - it is not at all clear that there is more risk in allowing a healthy, sporty youth take a vaccine than risk COVID. I place my trust in global medical experts, not people who pretend they know better than the scientific consensus.

Studies being carried out in the UK at the moment show that the risk is greater than the benefit for vaccinating children and ados.
I have had Covid, along with my husband and 2 kids and it was very mild for all of us. According to a Cleveland's clinic study people who have had Covid are better protected than those vaccinated. But of course that isn't mentioned by politicians because there is no money for big pharma if that's the case.

Studies being carried out in the UK at the moment show that the risk is greater than the benefit for vaccinating children

No. No, they don't. Rubbish. The risk of vaccination is very small. It is quite a fine balance, but scientific opinion is increasingly supporting vaccination, at least for over 12s.

You may have noticed that this is now what is happening in many other countries.

@herecomesthsun

Studies being carried out in the UK at the moment show that the risk is greater than the benefit for vaccinating children

No. No, they don't. Rubbish. The risk of vaccination is very small. It is quite a fine balance, but scientific opinion is increasingly supporting vaccination, at least for over 12s.

You may have noticed that this is now what is happening in many other countries.

It was an interview with a UK paediatrician on Radio 4 who said that at the moment looking at the data from other countries where children were vaccinated (Israel and the US) the risk was still higher than the benefit. So not rubbish.

I think the problem with most of these studies is that they only take into account the risk of death not long term illness or disrupted education.

So what is your justification for the tests not being free?

Because the tests cost money - governments have spent a great deal of money on testing, on vaccinations, and on supporting their citizens through the financial impact of a pandemic. Everyone who is not medically exempt (I would include those who cannot access the vaccination due to severe health anxiety / mental health issues in the exempt) have an option that they can access for free in order to live without these restrictions. Those tests need to be paid for by someone - why should they not be paid for by those who are choosing to not access the other option?

I say this as someone who couldn’t afford regular testing myself if it were brought in. I’m also someone who’s chosen to only go to a restaurant once this year, not to go to the pub, hasn’t been to a shopping centre. So doing these things is also a choice.

Those in any country who implement this sort of policy need to make choices. Making one decision over another has consequences and we have to weigh them all up and make a choice. If someone can’t afford regular testing then their choices are to get vaccinated or not go to the places requiring a test.

And again, without measures like these, there may be further situations where none of these things are accessible to anyone regardless of vaccine status or test result because everywhere will be closed again. That will have a much greater impact on mental health and the economy.

Cyprus have been doing this for a while.

Those tests need to be paid for by someone - why should they not be paid for by those who are choosing to not access the other option?

They’re trying to force people to have the vaccine, it’s a simple as that, by making it unaffordable to not have the vaccine and still live a ‘normal’ life including eating out etc.
Taxes pay for the consequences of many things that are choices. I’m not against taxes paying for those things, but they should also be used for people who make the choice to not be vaccinated.

There were / are a lot of unvaccinated people in France. f you need a PCR test 24 hours between going into a cafe even, that’s millions of additional PCR tests that need to be done every day. Not only is that expensive, but someone has to process those tests and in many cases take the samples too - they probably don’t even have the capacity to perform and process that many tests, we certainly wouldn’t have the capacity to do it here. Even if they have the capacity, it would extend the time it takes for tests to be processed and reported.

Making the tests paid for unless you meet the current testing criteria will reduce that number, either because will decide to get vaccinated (as many have already done and I don’t believe all of them were opposed to getting it) or they’ll go out less often which will reduce spread. This will reduce pressure on the testing service.

It seems some people think that test processing capacity is infinite or that they process themselves.

Care homes in France HAVE tried the carrot. A care home director was explaining how many times Drs and experts have been in to talk to his staff about vaccination. How they all had 1:1 meetings where they could ask any questions they liked and explore why they didn't want to have the vaccine.

Ditto with hospital staff. My nurse friend says they have had loads of information and opportunity to ask questions.

Making the tests paid for unless you meet the current testing criteria will reduce that number, either because will decide to get vaccinated (as many have already done and I don’t believe all of them were opposed to getting it) or they’ll go out less often which will reduce spread. This will reduce pressure on the testing service.

It will force poorer people who really do not want the vaccine to get it. Or they can’t go out to cafes etc. They have their choice removed.
Meanwhile richer people will still not get the vaccine if they don’t want it. They can afford the tests and can still go out to cafes etc. They still have choices.
That’s not right.

People with more money generally have more choice over people with less. That has always been the case, including health care.

In this situation, at least the "poorer people" do still have a choice.

So how do you propose they process millions of additional tests per day and absorb those costs? Or should they just say screw it, no testing need and wait for the next lockdown (aka the U.K. approach)?

Yes it’s shit for poorer people, but to say there’s no reason why tests should be paid for is disingenuous.

I think that it is important to understand the context of this ruling compared to other rules in France which are different to the UK.

Vaccination is compulsory for children in order to go to school. You also cannot go to sports clubs or organised trips without vaccinations.

Healthcare workers already have 4 compulsory vaccinations, this will just be another one.

It is compulsory to carry photo id, so adding a passe isn't that big a deal.

We do not have a national health service in the same way as the uk. We see healthcare as a separate line, or several separate lines, on our payslips. Continuing to give people free tests because they want to go to a restaurant, want to go on holiday etc, will increase the amount that is taken off our salaries. As would letting covid run rife and risk thousands of longcovid sufferers.

I am strongly in favour of the vaccine and I fully support these measures.

It will force poorer people who really do not want the vaccine to get it. Or they can’t go out to cafes etc. They have their choice removed.

Just because you don’t like the choices doesn’t mean they don’t have choices.

I’ve been in many situations in my life where there’s been no good choices - just the least bad choice. I’ve still had to make them and live with the consequences. Surely most people have experienced similar?

Governments absorb the costs and find ways of doing things that suit them. So they need to do that. In 18 months they’ve found the money to produce millions of vaccines, pay for the research involved in that, worked out the logistics, produced tests, etc. I’m sure they’re capable of doing similar, of course if they don’t want to, they’ll make people believe it’s not possible.

Desperation to control the pandemic and have the vaccine is no reason to stamp over people’s choices.

There is no easy answer. But I believe taking away people’s choices, essentially making some people second class citizens isn’t the way to go.

I say that as someone who can easily afford whatever the cost of a multiple tests per week will be. My partner is vaccinated and is equally appalled at what France are doing. We both very much hope this doesn’t happen in the UK.

People need to see this for what it is.

FFS

And what about all the businesses closing permanently cos they haven't been able to open due to covid? At least this way they get to stay open.

You do not HAVE to have the vaccine. You just can't do certain things if you don't. Like many other things in life.