France pulls out the big guns!

[NotPregnantJustChubs]

I live in France and Macron has just made a speech saying that from the end of July, vaccination or a negative test is going to be compulsory for cultural and entertainment venues. From August, it’ll be compulsory for cafes and restaurants too. This applies to all 12+.

PCR tests will become paid as of September, to encourage vaccination.

I’m already vaccinated, thankfully, and I do think it’s necessary to contain the delta variant. But wowza, I’m waiting to hear the backlash in the morning. Macron is up for reelection next year as well, they must be very desperate to contain this…

To clarify, I’m saying people in France may not be following the impact of Delta in the Uk and elsewhere. It was only when my fully Pfizer vaccinated SIL in the UK tested positive that I woke up to its potential impact.

@usuallydormant

To clarify, I’m saying people in France may not be following the impact of Delta in the Uk and elsewhere. It was only when my fully Pfizer vaccinated SIL in the UK tested positive that I woke up to its potential impact.

I don't understand your point. It's clear that the Pfizer vaccine isn't effective against the Delta variant. It's also clear that there is more risk than benefit in vaccinating 12 - 18 year olds. Sadly there are a lot of sheep in France who don't read the facts and believe a liar (in December 2020 Macron said that vaccination would never become compulsory) and went to be vaccinated today. Funnily enough on the MSM news France 2 they actually mentioned the possible side effect of contracting Guillain-Barré which has been on the increase in the US with vaccinations. It's not an insignificant illness.

@usuallydormant

To clarify, I’m saying people in France may not be following the impact of Delta in the Uk and elsewhere. It was only when my fully Pfizer vaccinated SIL in the UK tested positive that I woke up to its potential impact.

Oh right I thought ‘you’ meant me ;

I don’t think I was worried about delta back then. Behaviourally though I was always going to get vaccinated as I see it as way out of this.

It's clear that the Pfizer vaccine isn't effective against the Delta variant.

www.businessinsider.in/science/news/6-fully-vaccinated-people-caught-the-delta-variant-after-an-outdoor-wedding-but-the-ones-with-pfizer-and-moderna-shots-didnt-get-very-sick/amp_articleshow/84351902.cms

In America, where the majority of vaccinations are mRNA (Pfizer or Moderna), 99.5% of the deaths are now in the unvaccinated.

The Pfizer vaccine is effective against severe effects (and considerably more effective than AZ), but not 100% effective and doesn’t make us bulletproof- we still need to wear masks in crowded areas etc. What is the threshold you, Bordelique, consider effective? All vaccines have side effects and given the huge numbers of people being vaccinated, it is inevitable that some will have adverse effects. But i firmly believe vaccination is the only thing to get us out of the current situation. I’m fully vaccinated- I might get COVID but the impact is greatly reduced. That’s enough for me.

I prefer to vaccinate my child than risk COVID - it is not at all clear that there is more risk in allowing a healthy, sporty youth take a vaccine than risk COVID. I place my trust in global medical experts, not people who pretend they know better than the scientific consensus.

As for “liars” politicians cannot foresee the future and they are ridiculous if they announce ultimatums against a virus. The vaccine is not yet compulsory in France but we taxpayers now longer have to foot the test bill for those unwilling to be vaccinated. You still have a choice but there is a financial drawback. Tant pis.

Overall though I agree with this move, except I hope they make tests free for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical issues.

There’s so much hyperbole on this thread.

It’s always conveniently ignored in these discussions but there are repercussions of having no restrictions - likely further lockdowns wherein nobody can go to any of these places, and nobody can work in them either because they are all closed. The decisions made about restrictions, about vaccination and testing will have an impact on case numbers and hospitalisations and NHS staff sickness levels - some people seem to think that we can have fewer restrictions than other counties and there’ll be no difference in Covid levels. I’m not sure how anyone can think this way but it’s littered through this thread and all the others.

Everyone has access to a free vaccine course - your choice is to have it and be able to access more things, or don’t have it and be limited in what you can access or pay for tests.

Those talking about abortion are being completely ridiculous - France already has mandatory childhood vaccinations, so actually required rather than something you can still choose not to have, and miraculously abortion is still legal.

It ridiculous to see people complaining that nobody tasks these risks seriously while simultaneously making such ludicrous statements, along with the stuff that was debunked months ago (“still in trial phase” 🙄)

Everyone has access to a free vaccine course - your choice is to have it and be able to access more things, or don’t have it and be limited in what you can access or pay for tests.

There’s the problem though. People don’t feel they have a ‘choice’ if they will have to pay for the tests. Make them free so poorer people still really have a choice and there’s no issue.

@schnubbins

Its very much the same here in Germany. No admittance to hotels without Covid Pass or negative Antigen /PCR test. We live in Southern Germany but were in Leipzig last week and at a hotel in at the Austrian German border at the weekend .Covid pass had to be presented at the hotels and at all restaurants and cafes both in Austria and Germany.So it looks as though it will be a Europe wide thing.

Announced today that the unvaccinated in Greece will be barred from bars, cinemas and theatres. The Greek PM says no one can plead ignorance any more. "Greece is not dangerous. The danger is unvaccinated Greeks".

Another nation that wont address the anxieties of people who are scared to get the vaccine for various reasons. No outreach, no help, no carrot... just stick.

[quote XenoBitch]@Tealightsandd

There's never been 'my body, my choice'. Mentally ill people are treated against their will. Why? The reasoning is if they are a danger to themselves or others. Is that right? Up to you to decide what you think, but certainly the precedent was set centuries ago

No, just no. Please don't compare people spreading Covid to something that acute as a mental health condition. I have been sectioned... I was unwell and for sure a danger to myself at the time.
It is an absolute world away from Covid measures where the vast majority of people do not have Covid, so are not a danger to people.

The two are not comparible.[/quote]
Sorry you went through that. I hope you're doing ok now.

I have a family member who has been sectioned in the past, and separately a family friend.

Why is it ok to force mentally ill people to have treatment against their consent, if a doctor decides they might pose a danger to themself or others, but not for someone who might spread Covid.

Spreading Covid is the same. A potential danger to yourself or others.

Why should people who work with the vulnerable during a pandemic have rights that mentally ill people do not?

the vast majority of people do not have Covid, so are not a danger to people.

To quote you. No just no.
In high risk countries like the UK, many many people have Covid and many many more will get it - sometimes more than once.

Covid has caused immeasurable damage and suffering worldwide.

It has cost millions of lives, battered economies (in the countries like the UK who failed to contain). And it is leaving significant numbers of people disabled and chronically ill.

France, Ireland, Germany, Greece.

These are countries thinking of their vulnerable. And taking action to try to mitigate against significant numbers of currently non vulnerable overnight becoming one of the vulnerable (via Long Covid).

Good for them.

Thinking of their vulnerable... by using other people's bodies to try and achieve that. That's not right. No-one's right to safety should come at the expense of someone else's bodily integrity.

Two things, in reality. There will be increased shortages of care home workers so care standards will decrease further. And vaccinated people can still get covid so the vulnerable elderly will still get exposed.
So we'll have taken a further step down a nasty slippery slope for no real reason. There's nothing good about what was voted through today if you examine it closely.

Thinking of their vulnerable... by using other people's bodies to try and achieve that. That's not right. No-one's right to safety should come at the expense of someone else's bodily integrity.

Cam you link me to your campaign? I presume, since you feel so strongly, that you have a campaign set up, for the rights of the mentally unwell to have bodily integrity.

There's no 'care' about putting a vulnerable person's life at risk. Just as a vegan likely wouldn't work in a butchers, someone who doesn't want a vaccine shouldn't work with the most vulnerable. They need to do what the vegan had to. Get a different job. Meanwhile lots of people are looking for work right now.

Care homes and hospitals have a duty of care.

Vulnerable residents and patients, and their loved ones, have the right to safe care.

@Tealightsandd

Sectioning someone under the MHA and looking at unvaccinated people as a danger to the public as a comparison is irrelevant and offensive.

Sectioned people do not have their rights removed based on "might". The threshold for sectioning is very high and for good reason.
Removing the rights of someone based on the fact they are just unvaccinated... why the assumption they are walking about wafting Covid over everyone?

Ironically, the reason I wont be having the vaccine is that I was sectioned and medicated against my will.

Tealightsandd I do in fact campaign as I have long term health issues after being injured by a medication. It was as horrible as any life changing injury or health change is, but if I had felt pressured or coerced into taking it that would have made the psychological aspect significantly worse. So that is the perspective with which I approach this.

No medication is guaranteed to be free of side effects and therefore every medication administered should be with the informed consent of the patient and on balance the benefits should be realistically deemed to outweigh the risks. For the person taking it, not for anyone else.

You are unfortunately very wrong if you think there's a long queue of people looking for caring work, its a sector that already struggled with staffing issues. Worsening that is likely to cause significantly more suffering for the vulnerable elderly than having some unvaccinated carers.

Vaccination for covid does not prevent infection very well anyway, so the elderly are not going to be guaranteed a covid free environment.

@MaxNormal

Thinking of their vulnerable... by using other people's bodies to try and achieve that. That's not right. No-one's right to safety should come at the expense of someone else's bodily integrity.

Two things, in reality. There will be increased shortages of care home workers so care standards will decrease further. And vaccinated people can still get covid so the vulnerable elderly will still get exposed.
So we'll have taken a further step down a nasty slippery slope for no real reason. There's nothing good about what was voted through today if you examine it closely.

A quick look on this board shows you the amount of people double vaxxed that have still got Covid.

I can't believe that anyone would think what is going on in France now is a good idea. More chilling is seeing people hoping it happens here.

I just unfollowed a band page on FB because they posted that unvaccinated fans are not welcome to their gigs.

It was actually my family member who suggested the comparison Xeno. The one living with psychosis, who has experienced being sectioned (more than once). They told me they find it offensive to see people claiming requirements for certain jobs are the same as forced medical treatment. I get their point.

But anyway, nobody is suggesting forcing vaccines on people. (Although some, including on this thread, seem to support forcing society's most vulnerable to be 'cared for' by the unvaccinated). Just as most vegans wouldn't work as butchers, working with the vulnerable is not suitable for the unvaccinated.

A quick look on this board shows you the amount of people double vaxxed that have still got Covid

A good friend has just finished her ten day quarantine after testing positive, double vaccinated. She was mildly ill only but would have been just as infectious as anyone else.

Mitigation is a word.

Xenobitch I'm really sorry to hear that you were being forcibly medicated.

In America 99.5% of the deaths are in the unvaccinated.

(The majority of their vaccines are the mRNA type (Pfizer and Moderna). Whether that's relevant, I don't know.)

@MaxNormal

Xenobitch I'm really sorry to hear that you were being forcibly medicated.

Restrained and injected. I was told on another thread that I clearly think I am "above Covid" and am just "scared" of the needle. Same MNetter also said I should be turned away from A&E for self harm.

I was sectioned recently by police, and was held down to have a pulse oximeter put on. The people that think I can happily skip to a vaccine centre and just "look away" to get the vaccine can all fuck off frankly.

Removing the rights of someone based on the fact they are just unvaccinated...

What rights are being removed if you are unvaccinated? The right to go into a cafe without having a test done first? Any business has the right to refuse someone service. Testing is an alternative to vaccination.

@DumplingsAndStew

Removing the rights of someone based on the fact they are just unvaccinated...

What rights are being removed if you are unvaccinated? The right to go into a cafe without having a test done first? Any business has the right to refuse someone service. Testing is an alternative to vaccination.

But the tests are not free.