What is going on?????

[Dustyboots]

Sorry, I know there’ve been countless threads discussing this sort of thing. But so far all I can find are people arguing about masks and smoking ...

What is our government doing? What are they up to? I’ve just seen a tweet with a German news report that says the UK is conducting a mass Covid experiment.

Is our government trying to crash the NHS in order to dismantle it?

What are they up to?

if you just look at the figures alone, however there are (according to the same figures) much fewer fully vaxxed testing positive, but of them 8 times more deaths than in the unvaxxed population.

@DownSideUpped - where do you get these figures from?

I am trying to build up courage to get vaccinated - but only if I really feel it's the right thing to do. I need this sort of information to weigh things up. Is it possible to find out who is being affected - age groups/vaccine status etc and who is dying?

The UK is dropping opening up with no mitigation measures when cases, hospitalisations (and, slowly but surely, deaths) are rising

No it isn't. England is, the rest of the UK is not.

I wish people would remember that there are three other nations in the UK🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢

Sorry random flags there!

In terms of absolute numbers there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated over 50 that are dying. However in percentage terms, the population is different. Dr been explains this. The population of double vaccinated over 50 is much larger than the population of unvaccinated over 50. But the data does not differentiate so we don't know age or sex or even whether vaccination was contraindicated. It might be that the vaccinated were older and more vulnerable or vice versa.

But according to data collected by Zoe we do know that around a third of all symptomatic cases are at least partially vaccinated.

Thus exuding the asymptomatic (which may be more than 60%) we can expect that over 30,000 per day if we reach 100,000 cases per day will have been somewhat vaccinated.

This knocks the idea of herd immunity out of the park. Especially since the vaccines reduce severity of illness and death and are not always effective and that the virus mutates and reduces efficacy of vaccines developed to deal with previous dominant strains.

Then we have the potential nightmare of variants mutating in the partially vaccinated or those with inadequate response during a time when infection rates are growing. The virus does not need to mutate to infect the non vaccinated. It may need to mutate to infect the partially vaccinated.

@shewalkslikerihanna

TheMawisbraw

It’s not the uk though just England, I’m in Scotland and thankfully masks and social distancing is here to stay even when we move to level 0

Oh good
That’s Scotland off the holiday travel list then
Is Wales any better
I fancy going to see the Welsh rellies later on in the summer but not if it’s going to be my worst nightmare

Feeling is mutual

Is it possible to find out who is being affected - age groups/vaccine status etc and who is dying?

We know that in the US it is the unvaccinated who are getting ill. Many of those who become ill will end up with long covid, even if they don't die.

If you have a choice of vaccine, go for moderna.

...parents of children who have been experimented on vote, and dead people have lots of relatives,and friends that vote. And even if you don't know anyone who died, large death numbers affect people.

The reasons people vote for certain candidates or parties or propositions are demonstrably irrational.

Hence Donald Trump's popularity in parts of the US that are dirt poor.

Hence Brexit.

Dustyboots
where do you get these figures from?

The PHE document I linked to earlier. Here it is again:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000678/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_18.pdf

See table on pages 16/17.

As of June 21, there had been 257 deaths in England of people who were confirmed as having the Delta variant and who died within 28 days of a positive test, Public Health England said.
Of this number, 26 were under the age of 50 and 231 were aged 50 or over, PA news reports.
Of the 231 aged 50 or over, 71 were unvaccinated, one was within 21 days of a first dose of vaccine, 41 at least 21 days after one dose of vaccine and 116 had received both doses.
Of the 26 under 50, three were at least 21 days after a first dose of vaccine, two had received both doses and 21 were unvaccinated.

@Tealightsandd

What's going on, is the UK is going to 'let it rip', let the bodies pile up, let people die and become disabled.

The rest of the world is taking mitigation measures. Including masks.

Herd immunity doesn't happen unless and until majority (80-90%) are vaccinated. Catching it once doesn't stop you getting it again, particularly new strains.

The UK is dropping opening up with no mitigation measures when cases, hospitalisations (and, slowly but surely, deaths) are rising. The majority are not yet fully vaccinated, and vaccines aren't as effective against Delta (although still good).

The UK is creating high risk conditions for the development of a vaccine resistant strain.

Absolute rubbish. For a start, the US have dropped far more restrictions than us. For another the link between transmission and deaths has been broken. This is born out by the fact that death rates remain very low so no the bodies won’t be piling up. Not from Covid anyway. Anymore lockdowns and the there will be more deaths from suicide and cancer but then only Covid deaths matter to people like you:

The virus does not need to mutate to infect the non vaccinated. It may need to mutate to infect the partially vaccinated.

Does this mean that vaccinated people will catch the non mutated version of the virus?

I'm expecting that you could catch either if you're unvaccinated - and just the mutated form if you're vaccinated - but maybe I'm wrong ...

The above question was to @KOKOagainandagain

The PHE document I linked to earlier. Here it is again:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000678/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_18.pdf

thankyou @DownSideUpped

We need a definition of "really ill".
So many anecdotes about double vaccinated people being really ill and we all know that one person's cold is another's flu.

@Beebityboo

If you can get it more than once then surely they can't achieve herd immunity regardless of what they do?

Not necessarily - depends on how effective the vaccines are and on the new variants that emerge.

@DownSideUpped Interesting about Lambada, that update suggests it may be unable to compete with Delta.

@StealthPolarBear

A year ago we'd never have predicted vaccine success like this. If we can't open up now (or soon) then what is the plan exactly? It's felt like people have been calling for us to "just sit tight for a few more weeks" since March 2020.

Yes, they have! It was just a couple of weeks, then 3 months...

If they said we were staying locked up everyone would moan. If they open everything up people moan. For the past few weeks all we've heard about is the terrible effects the lockdown has had on everyone - children's education, everyone's mental health etc. Israel has vaccinated everyone and is back to normal apparently. If it starts to get out of control they will lock us all up again and then that'll give everyone something else to moan about. People need to take control of themselves and do what's right for them. If you want to stay at home, wear masks and safe distance then do it. Don't expect the government to constantly tell you what to do. Think for yourselves.

You really think so? Scotland has 5 areas which have the highest cases of coronavirus in Europe!!
Our vaccination rates are lower than England.
Sturgeon is doing an awful job.

From what I've read, all other countries think their own governments have handled this crisis badly. The only time the UK gets a mention by them is to deflect their population's attention away from their own country's abysmal handling of it.

Re hospitalisation figures..
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9772259/40-patients-Indian-Delta-variant-admitted-hospital-reasons-Covid.html

Do you think deaths per thousand figures are contestable, @ahoyshipmates

I know of half a dozen people who have COVID at the moment-ages raging from 17-50. 17 year old once vaccinated and the rest ALL double vaccinated. Most very unwell and one seriously ill. It ain’t over yet.

Conspiracy theories abound! Every government is experimenting as there has been nothing like this since Spanish flu, and then there was no technology and worldwide rumours.

People have very short memories and give it a couple of years and we will have all moved on to the bugbears of the here and now in 2024/25.

Media in all its formats need to be taken with a huge shovel of salt...

[quote DownSideUpped]Ha! The long awaited Technical Briefing 18 from PHE has been released today. Now, I would really love to see the same tables but excluding cases involving school children (unvaxxed by default) and then we’d be able to make better conclusions from the data, however....

10,834 cases in fully vaccinated people from which there have been 118 deaths, 116 in over 50s and 2 under 50. That is 109 deaths per 10,000 cases.

71932 unvaccinated cases... from which there have been 92 deaths, 71 over 50 and 21 under 50. That is nearly 13 people per 10,000 cases.

26495 cases in partially vaxxed, and 45 deaths, 41 of whom are over age 50. 17 deaths per 10,000.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000678/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_18.pdf[/quote]
But that gives the unvaccinated a much lower mortality than the vaccinated.