Feeling so low about this new world of vaccines

[blue12345]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me? For many reasons, I've decided not to get the Covid vaccine. I' have all my vaccines and all my kids are vaccinated. I state this to show I'm not an anti-vaxxer, although I increasingly feel like one.

I'm feeling very isolated from my friends and family as a result of this. Everyone I meet asks me am I booked in yet, am I double-vaccinated. I don't bother getting into conversations about it , but it still causes me anxiety and has led to friction. A very close friend has asked me a few times have I got an appointment for my vaccine yet and I've tried to brush her off, as I think she will be unlikely to want to spend time around me after she finds out I'm not getting it. I've also found that lots of friends have cut back on their contact with me.

I am very comfortable with my decision, but I'm just so sad that we now live in a world where the segregation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people is allowed, in both interpersonal relations and also looking more and more likely that services like restaurants and travel will be similarly restricted.

Totally appreciate everyone's opinions on this, but why? I'm the same person, I have known many of these people for decades. I'm not endangering them. I'm making a medical decision for myself. I have taken other vaccines for the greater good, for myself and my family.

My husband is CEV and we spent most of last year shielding. Like many others in the shielding group the vaccine is likely not to be as effective in him. So although the rest of the country are beginning to see their life to return to (almost) normal, this puts people like my husband more at risk. Like you are deciding to do what you feel is best for yourself and your family, doing what is best for mine would deciding not to socialise physically with you, no matter what our relationship with each other may be. It would not really alter my feelings for you, and I do believe the vaccine should be a personal decision, but spending time with you would not be something I would feel safe doing for my husband's sake.

Many people will say that your decision not to have the vaccine is your private medical choice and no one else needs to know, but for people like my husband I feel it IS important for others to know. His life no longer depends on what he does, but it now can depend on the decisions and honesty of others...and it is that which seems so unbearably hard. With no get out clause to avoid others (ie the shielding letter saying stay at home) many in the CEV category have to return to work, maybe with commutes on crowded transport, and hoping and praying the person next to them on the train or in the office have had their vaccines too. I can't do anything about strangers, except to hope and pray, but I hope that as a friend or family member you would be honest with anyone you are spending time with in case they are CEV and you are unaware of it.

I would see you differently too now and would perhaps even question what we had in common on a level I probably hadn't before. I would also be aware of people I know who rely on me to make sensible choices in order to spend time with them safely and would distance myself from you to protect them as I would be more likely to get the virus from someone unvaccinated and then pass it on. I wouldn't think less of you though.

For me, it would change how I viewed you, particularly the fact you’re not prepared to do it for the greater good. I’d feel like I hadn’t really understood who you were before. I’m low risk and so is everyone I know. I’ve had the vaccine to help reduce the risk to the community overall.

Friendships aren’t just based on someone being nice or having similar interests or a shared history; they’re also based on aligned personal philosophies, shared values and similar world views. Just as I can’t imagine being close friends with a Trump supporter, nor can I imagine remaining good friends with someone who refused the vaccine for the reasons you’ve given. I imagine I’d stay in touch, but my understanding of who they are and what their values are would fundamentally change and therefore so would our friendship.

If you have no medical contraindications etc., and you refuse the vaccine because you think the vaccine is riskier to you than remaining unvaccinated and you choose not to factor risk and benefit to others into your risk:benefit ratio calculation, yeah, that's a selfish decision, but that's not something that would make me shun you. Lots of us make selfish decisions; it's healthy and normal to do so, within reason. Medically, I could give blood, but when I tried to sign up I hit various bureaucratic and organisational obstacles and didn't put in the effort to surmount them, so I've never got round to donating. That's pretty selfish of me. And if I genuinely believed that the risk to me personally of having a Covid vaccine was higher than the risk I'd be taking by not having one, then I guess it's possible I'd have made the same decision as you did. (As it is, I'm CEV with no contraindications, so it was an easy choice for me.) None of us are pure selfless beings of light and generosity, and I wouldn't shun you for making that particular selfish choice.

But if you were my friend, I might still avoid unnecessarily spending time with you in person, because your decision to remain unvaccinated means you may be more likely to give me Covid (which I might then pass on to my CEV partner and my elderly relatives) than other people I could be spending that time with. It's not a moral judgement, just a pragmatic decision.

What I would be really upset at, though, is being lied to about your vaccination status. Of course, I have no right to know your medical history, and if you told me you weren't willing to disclose whether or not you'd been vaccinated, I'd accept that (and behave as though you were unvaccinated). But to lie to me about what level of risk you pose to me and the people I love, potentially leading me to be less cautious about meeting with you than I would be if I knew the truth… yeah, I'd be pretty upset if I found out you'd done that.

@MercyBooth

the fact that the only reason we are even able to meet up is because of the overall success of the vaccination programme

How does that explain last summer.

Last summer cases were low due to lockdown. This summer cases are high but the impact on our NHS etc is lower because the severity of cases, on the whole, has decreased - due to the vaccination programme.

I kind of see the OPs point: medical privacy seems to have gone out of the window as far as Covid vaccinations are concerned! I am no longer asking people directly whether they are vaccinated, but will happily tell them that I am (you never know who might want to talk about it or be encouraged to do it). It seems to be fair game in a way that other medical info is not, and unless I really need to know (I don’t, I’m fully vaccinated plus have had Covid and no vulnerabilities in my family) I’m not going to pry.

@Mreggsworth I'm not lying about it, the person that has developed heart problems is a receptionist at a GP, she has chosen not to get the second vax and said the amount of people phoning with side effects from it is unbelievable. My friend that has went numb and tingly on one side whom I work with went to the drs about it and they said they don't know know enough about it to say why that's happened. My best friend who has been bleeding non stop since getting the vax phoned NHS 24 and they told her it was a coincidence and to take ibuprofen, she phoned her GP after and her dr and said they shouldn't have told her that, they can't say because nobody knows the effects or why it's happening. She isn't on birth control, not sexually active and has her periods regularly at the same time every month, it started the night she had the vax. It is absolutely not just a coincidence, it's happening to too many people. She is only late 20s. Loads of females are reporting period changes on MN too, with some not getting periods at all or others bleeding non stop. What if these women are trying for a baby etc?

It's all genuinely people I know that all these side effects that are happening to, they are just not getting reported in the news etc because they want people to get the vaccine. This isn't even including the milder side effects people are getting from having it eg. migraines, ear infections and shingles etc. You can see them on the yellow card reports page and that's only a small number compared to the real amount because not everyone reports theirs on there.

As someone said below it's being reported that in younger folk, especially young males that they are developing myocarditis. It would absolutely be reckless giving children the vaccine when they don't know enough about it and there's a chance of developing problems such as this when they would have no side effects or problems with covid most likely. My children absolutely won't be getting the vaccine until I know they will be completely safe.

Why should young healthy people who have the rest of their life to live take these chances? People shouldn't be getting told sorry we don't know enough about it to tell you why? These side effects are happening now, nobody knows if there could be any long time side effects. Had they of known enough about the vaccines they wouldn't have been handing out the AZ to people under a certain age and then stopping it because of potential problems.

I am not anti vax, I've not long had my flu and whooping cough, my children have had all their routine vaccines. I am just choosing to be safe for the sake of my children and family and could not give a flying F if people call me selfish. Thankfully everyone I know realise it's MY choice and know my reasons are perfectly valid for not getting the vaccine and aren't like all the folk on here that would choose not to be around me.

I don’t think you’ve thought this through op, you seem very naive in your stand point.

You keep saying “you’ve not changed” - you’ve changed in their eyes - you’re not willing to do something for the greater good, to get us out of this infernal mess, they will also be thinking why should they stand the risk of mixing with an unvaccinated person?

@WeatheringStorms22

There comes a point where self preservation takes over

That's the point when you go for the lower risk option and have the vaccine?

That's a matter of opinion. I'm comfortable with my decision not to take the vaccine after weighing up the pros, cons, risks and unknowns of each option.

I just like a quiet life...and whilst I'm not really affected by the viciousness and insults I read online (mainly on MN) I'm not willing to deal with that in rl. Hence, anyone that knows me thinks I'm vaccinated.

How is it a matter of opinion? Isn't it just a matter of looking at factual information?

The vaccine reduces transmission but doesn't stop it. I suppose choosing not to vaccinate means that some people see this as deliberately putting others at risk and not taking the best option to get out of the situation. However as it only reduces transmission, it's all a bit hypocritical unless those people are also taking all the other precautions not to spread covid such as wearing masks around others, testing regularly etc.

I'd think of you differently, you pose more of a risk. Just because we can still get a mild dose of Covid doesn't mean we want one, we want to avoid it hence why so many people have had the vaccine - to reduce the spread.

You decided that your body is too precious to have the vaccine and so you're relying on everyone who had it to reduce transmission. All while thinking that you're likely to pass it to them (the people who have actively tried to protect themselves and others) but it's fine because it probably won't be as bad as it could have been.

I'd be furious if you came near my CEV husband. You have a choice to help to protect him and you're choosing not to.

[quote blue12345]@BoredZelda I have no judgement about anyone else's decisions at all. It's just how my own decision is making other people act towards me. I have no form for this either, I am very traditional in most areas of my life.

I just err on the side of caution with anything I put into my body. No alcohol/smoking/drugs
no painkillers, no hormonal contraceptives and try not to take antibiotics unless very ill, so 1 in the last decade. [/quote]
I don’t think you need to justify yourself on here, it’s your body and your choice.
I’m the same, I don’t take anything unless I have to. I even refused a blood transfusion after giving birth even though that decision nearly killed me. I keep healthy, I exercise, I rarely drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t take any medication and as yet I’ve not had the vaccine.

I was originally messaged by the NHS saying I need the vaccine because of underlying health conditions, I called them as the message worried me and asked what underlying health conditions as I wasn’t aware I had any. They replied it’s just a generic message.
Since then I’ve been bombarded with calls about booking my vaccine.
This week I’ve had another letter again saying I was a risk of serious complications if I don’t have the vaccine.
If only they cared as much about my delayed smear test because of covid and every other medical procedure that people have had cancelled.

@blue12345 do you live in West Yorkshire?

My friend took her son, who has chest problems to A&E last weekend. The children a&e was completely overwhelmed. The high Covid rate in the area means there's not enough staff. It's really worrying here.

Over the last 3 days 4 schools local to me, have almost closed. They have only one or 2 groups in. That impacts the NHS. My own son has had a positive test, though thankfully isn't terribly poorly, but will now miss an appointment we have waited years for.

You have been incredibly lucky that civid hasn't impacted your life in any meaningful way. But it has impacted millions of people.

Someone said above, that it's like medical information isn't private anymore. If your medical information poses a danger to other people, it's never been expected to be private from people you are mixing with that it could impact.

If you were HIV positive and wasn't taking the medication that reduces the viral load, so you can't transmit it, you can't just go round having unprotected sex with people. If you did, you could be prosecuted.

People have been prosecuted in the past for not disclosing they have HIV with sexual partners.

Your medical information is private, to the point that if its impacting other people or posing a danger to other people, they should be aware.

You CHOSE to not have the vaccine. People are reacting in the way they choose to.

Half of the problem here is that you don't actually have good reasoning. It's all a bit wishy washy and not really based on facts.

Vaccines have always had this impact on groups of people. Non vaccinated people often choose other non vaccinated people for their closest friends as they share common values. Vaccinated people have often not wanted to be friends with unvaccinated people. It's not surprising. Wether to vaccine or not is an important issue. It does impact other people and its a sign of someone's values and thought processes

You are are now in the group of non vaccinated people, which impacts people in your social life. This divide didn't start with the Covid Vaccine. You just feel the impact because its the first time you have chosen not to vaccinated. You switched groups, now people are reacting differently to you.

Since when did medical information become public knowledge?

Never in my life, has anyone asked if I have had the flu jab or if my kids have had their MMR jabs. It's private medical information and nobody should feel obligated to divulge that information to anyone whatever the reason.

If friends still choose to distance themselves if you don't wish to divulge your medical details to them, I suppose that is their choice. Personally, I wouldn't dream of asking anyone about their medical background.

[quote Unsure33]@Sloaneslone

Exactly . We have a 27 year old at work suffering long covid and trying to support his family who have all been ill as well. And I could not support or hold the hands of my aunt and uncle who died of covid within a week of each other .

I still don’t think people should be judged who don’t have the vaccine but personally I think they should have the courage of their convictions and just shut questions down .[/quote]
I noticed the PP that asked the question I responded to, ignored my response.

Which is odd, as they claimed everybody ignores them when they ask it. I assume people are answering, but its not the answer they want. So ignore it.

I kind of see the OPs point: medical privacy seems to have gone out of the window as far as Covid vaccinations are concerned

Yep, I actually had an interviewee ask me if the rest of the staff were vaccinated . I had to politely point out that I had no idea since that is their private medical information .

@vegas888 - if you are worried about your delayed smear test - have the bloody vaccine!! The NHS is overwhelmed by people with covid, by staff numbers being so low as people are ill or isolating due to Covid, by a complete pivot in resourcing due to Covid.

If everyone eligible had the vaccine these pressures would be so much less. Can you really not see that? The stupidity here floors me.

You are endangering them though. You are more likely to catch and transmit when not vaccinated due to a higher viral load. Vaccines are not 100% effective either meaning they could still be at risk even once they’ve been vaccinated. If they want to avoid covid then avoiding you makes sense.

@anotherday235 - of COURSE we are taking all the other precautions mentioned. We are not selfish irresponsible twats.

And as it seems to have escaped your notice being vaccinated isn't just about me not getting or passing Covid on as you suggest (your point apparently being that since I may still pass it on, therefore what's the point). If I get it and don't get as ill the chances of me using precious resources of the NHS are not used, meaning a bed or ventilator is available for someone who needs it more. In addition when large swathes of the community are vaccinated herd immunity starts to kick in, the vaccine has less chance to mutate through unprotected individuals. You're over simplifying your support your selfish, nonsensical attitude.

I'd just think you seemed like a selfish, precious snowflake and I generally try to avoid people like that.

As others have pointed out, you want to benefit from the vaccination program without having to take any of the risks yourself. That's fine and absolutely up to you. I completely defend your right to make that decision.

But do I have to like you or want to hang out with you? Nope. I suspect your friends and family feel the same.

Your friends don't want to see you because you have made a poor choice. Deal with it! I would cut all contact with you too. Your explanation may work in your own head...but nobody who has been vaccinated can rationalise that in their head...because it sounds bonkers to them 🤷‍♀️

You are not 'the same person' they thought you were...and you very much are putting them in danger of catching a variant of this horrendous infection.

Give your head a wobble try to understand their views! Poor choices have consequences...and this is yours 👍

Mrgreggsworth. I’m not lying about DD and Mil and as I’ve said to another poster out of maybe 60 people I know they are the only people I know who have had bad reactions and I think it’s due to being vaccinated after having covid. Neither of their reactions were reported to the yellow card scheme as they were dismissed as coincidences... I wonder how many other people are reacting badly and not reporting it. DD’s consultant did book her blood tests for two weeks later ‘Just to keep an eye’ so they must have on some level acknowledged there was an issue.

@oohmethumb

It hasn't killed thousands of people. It has been detected in the deaths of thousands of elderly and frail people. For some unknown reason older people are exceptionally at risk. This does not mean the entire country needs a vaccination. The vast majority of us are not at risk of serious illness, hospitalisation or death.

So the massive and unprecedented spikes in deaths in Spring 2020 and Winter 2021 were just some massive, coincidence then?

"I believe that we could have helped the vulnerable of the world by vaccinating our vulnerable first and then sharing our vaccines with poorer countries before vaccinating the younger and healthy in our country."

Your logic doesn't even make sense. So you are happy for vulnerable people to take something that you think it's dangerous to healthy person like you?
Your view is so detached from reality of others, no wonder some people wants to distance from you.