Online emergency meeting of British scientists and politicians tomorrow

[JanFebAnyMonth]

www.johnsnowmemo.com/summitdeclaration.html?fbclid=IwAR1ip9v81nlZUTBIN46cKEOhvqmr3n2ISfEGYsUI8WKkb7ZEMnoM6jUEwPQ

JOHN SNOW MEMORANDUM
EMERGENCY SUMMIT AGAINST MASS INFECTION
THURSDAY 8th JULY, 10:00 am

We are holding an emergency summit to outline our concerns about the UK government’s current strategy to abandon most restrictions in England on the 19th July in the midst of a surging pandemic. We have outlined our concerns in a letter to The Lancet (embargoed until 23.30hrs UK time on Wednesday 7 July 2021), now signed by more than 120 of the world's leading scientists. At the summit we will outline our grave concerns about the UK government’s dangerous and reckless strategy, and the urgent steps we need to take to protect the public.

PROGRAMME

Statement from Scientists and Medical Doctors
Professor Trish Greenhalgh, Professor of Primary Care Health Sciences, Medical Sciences Division, University of Oxford
Dr. Richard Horton, Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet
Professor Kailash Chand, Honorary Vice President of the British Medical Association and former deputy chair of the BMA
Dr. Deepti Gurdasani, Clinical Epidemiologist and Senior Lecturer in Machine Learning, Queen Mary University of London

Q&A session
Panel will include all speakers and:
Dr. Rachel Clarke, NHS palliative care doctor and author
Sir David King, former Chief Scientific adviser and chair of Independent SAGE
Professor Susan Michie, Professor of Health Psychology, University College London and member of Independent SAGE
Caroline Lucas, MP, Former Leader of the Green Party of England and Wales
Richard Burgon, MP, Labour MP for Leeds East
Debbie Abrahams, MP, Labour MP for Oldham East and Saddleworth
Philippa Whitford, MP, Scottish National Party MP for Central Ayrshire
Barbara Keeley, MP, Labour MP for Worsley and Eccles South

This event will be livestreamed at: and on Twitter at @allthecitizens.

We will be taking questions from the press and public. Please contact us at [email protected] if you'd like to ask a question.

Please join us at 10am tomorrow

@yeOldeTrout

I hope they each pledge to donate all of their entire annual salaries to reduce the national debt - or at least pay for hospitality businesses to keep everyone on furlough.

Do the maths, why don't you?

@ollyollyoxenfree The issue is that we are predicted to have 100,000 new cases a day. If just 10% needed hospital treatment his will mean hospitals will be saturated and unable to offer safe care to non-COVID patients, meaning their healthcare will suffer.

Nowhere near 10% of infected people will need hospital treatment. 1% is still too high. Maybe 0.1% is more realistic. The vast majority of people with a positive test don't even have symptoms. Even the majority of people with symptoms don't need hospital treatment.

Higher numbers of people needed hospitalisation in the first waves because they were already vulnerable due to age or medical condition. Now the vast majority of those have been double jabbed. Most infected people today are younger/healthier so even less likely to need hospital treatment.

Our county is one of the most affected by the Delta variant. Just looked at our local NHS trust statistics and there are only 5 covid patients across the 3 hospitals in our NHS trust area. Only 2 of those are on ICU. That shows the reality. We've had hundreds/thousands of reported infections every day for the past few weeks, but only 5 people currently in hospital.

[quote Badbadbunny]**@ollyollyoxenfree* The issue is that we are predicted to have 100,000 new cases a day. If just 10% needed hospital treatment his will mean hospitals will be saturated and unable to offer safe care to non-COVID patients, meaning their healthcare will suffer.*

Nowhere near 10% of infected people will need hospital treatment. 1% is still too high. Maybe 0.1% is more realistic. The vast majority of people with a positive test don't even have symptoms. Even the majority of people with symptoms don't need hospital treatment.

Higher numbers of people needed hospitalisation in the first waves because they were already vulnerable due to age or medical condition. Now the vast majority of those have been double jabbed. Most infected people today are younger/healthier so even less likely to need hospital treatment.

Our county is one of the most affected by the Delta variant. Just looked at our local NHS trust statistics and there are only 5 covid patients across the 3 hospitals in our NHS trust area. Only 2 of those are on ICU. That shows the reality. We've had hundreds/thousands of reported infections every day for the past few weeks, but only 5 people currently in hospital.[/quote]
@Badbadbunny it was a mistype with fat fingers- I said 1% in my follow up post 5 seconds later

this was in reference to:

"The NHS will have to work out a way not to give priority to Covid patients as a matter of course. As has been the rule hitherto.
All other activities of a hospital must continue, oncology, heart and other departments must remain open." from @markmichelle

but what on earth do you suggest is the alternative? Turf COVID patients out when they need ICU treatment? Just let COVID+ patients mix with other vulnerable people?

The issue is that we are predicted to have 100,000 new cases a day. If just 1% needed hospital treatment his will mean hospitals will be saturated and unable to offer safe care to non-COVID patients, meaning their healthcare will suffer.

newnortherner111 Thu 08-Jul-21 12:43:18

I agree, I was in the shop today and I feel horrified that from next week the cashier could literately have hundreds of people breathing covid all over her - every moment of the day - I really hope business makes sure staff are safe I am very very happy for such staff to take off their masks - but I really think we should keep ours for them.

NHS needs to be urgently looking at ventilation, and stopping cross infection and why its happening and then - making sure they have enough top range PPE for staff, oxygen - special areas for covid.

@Horehound

Thanks *@WouldBeGood* I just looked up the symptoms myself and just wrote on another thread that a lot of these symptoms could be attributed to lots of other health issues. It seems a bit over inflated to me and the NHS say most people who do have long covid recover within 12 weeks anyway. Like, pins and needles or tinnitus can be a symptom...I can't get worked up about it. I have tinnitus and have down for years Big deal 🤷 I feel like anyone who has pins and needles will be like ohh I have long covid I need 12 weeks of work I can't see how you can get PTSD from having covid mildly Are we all just becoming a bit...soft?!

*@WouldBeGood* @Horehound I’ll be sure to ask my 11 year old who’s been suffering from the effects of long covid for over a year if he isn’t just being a bit soft.

He had covid, Kawasaki type symptoms and ongoing fatigue, pain and a buggered up inflammatory system for a year which is also pretty painful.) It’s not just “a bit of anxiety” or a “bit of tinnitus” for kids who are going through this. I know you’d like to tell yourself it is, so you don’t have to worry or be forced into wearing a “face nappy” but it’s a bit fucking much so see it’s so casually dismissed.

An 11 year has had a year of his life impacted, and he’s far from the only one.

So yeah, big deal,

[quote Horehound]@chickenyhead so this is a study of people who had Acute covid that were treated in hospital, then discharged then readmitted for symptoms of long covid? What % of the UK population had covid and what % of them were admitted to hospital?[/quote]
Can’t answer a lot of those questions but ds wasn’t admitted to hospital during his initial infection (should have been, and was admitted for his secondary symptoms) and yet he was ill for just over a year. Still having relapses actually, but thankfully they’re getting further apart.

In the first wave a lot of people weren’t admitted to hospital who should have been, which won’t help the stats.

Long Covid seems to be a big concern when it comes to the doctors and scientists, and yet for years people have been ill with long term conditions after suffering from a virus. eg. ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, post viral fatigue syndrome and for long enough so many doctors would not even admit such illnesses even existed. People were told there was nothing medically wrong so it must be in their heads. People have suffered with these things for years not just since Covid and for many their illness didn't even have a name. 'Long Covid' really isn't a new thing.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay, okay but you get that if it really is such a huge number (literally 1m people), then we’d expect to be able to see them in day to day life.

Yet I don’t see anyone with significant long term symptoms.

The way I reconcile the figures with observation is that it’s relatively severe (so more people do get a more acutely affected, over a longer period), but that overall the numbers that have long term debilitating symptoms is tiny.

Which isn’t to say it is unimportant.

But to report 1.5% when that includes people with a bit of a headache after a hard bout the disease is not particularly helping anyone’s cause.

Again to say, I do think long covid is an important area to research. There is undoubtedly something there. But it’s not a stop the world moment — not on those flaky stats.

@Ginandfantalemon

Long Covid seems to be a big concern when it comes to the doctors and scientists, and yet for years people have been ill with long term conditions after suffering from a virus. eg. ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, post viral fatigue syndrome and for long enough so many doctors would not even admit such illnesses even existed. People were told there was nothing medically wrong so it must be in their heads. People have suffered with these things for years not just since Covid and for many their illness didn't even have a name. 'Long Covid' really isn't a new thing.

Agree. Try Lyme Disease. That's another one that you can only get treated privately.

Further to my stats above on deaths.

May infections: 72.5K - in Hospital at end of May 904
June infections: 304k - in Hospital at end of June 1804

Mass infections no longer lead to mass hospitalisations. Infections up five fold, hospitalisations only double. Yes, yes, long covid etc etc.

Waits for PrincessNutsNuts to come along and keep insisting that it's only going to get worse.

@Ginandfantalemon

Long Covid seems to be a big concern when it comes to the doctors and scientists, and yet for years people have been ill with long term conditions after suffering from a virus. eg. ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, post viral fatigue syndrome and for long enough so many doctors would not even admit such illnesses even existed. People were told there was nothing medically wrong so it must be in their heads. People have suffered with these things for years not just since Covid and for many their illness didn't even have a name. 'Long Covid' really isn't a new thing.

Ok. So doctors have ignored other types of post viral illness, so everyone should ignore this one as well?

Sadly, the medical community has been a bit rubbish (to put it mildly) at diagnosing post viral conditions and me/fibro. I’ve sat through many appointments with a family member who was hit badly by fibro, and hearing all the “it’s just psychosomatic, trying cheering up.” bullshit. Very telling that it took a practice nurse rather than a consultant to get it diagnosed and some treatment started.

With covid and long covid there has been a large scale and clear link between the virus and the long term issues. There hasn’t been an observable clear link (in many doctors eyes) between flu and other post viral illnesses. It’s far too easy for doctors to put it down to exhaustion/age/menopause/anxiety purely because flu for eg hasn’t hit large swathes of the population at the same time with the same after effects as covid has, with the same numbers involved.

(Hey, you can even see that on this thread. “Isn’t long covid just anxiety? PTSD? Bullshit?”)

I would hope that the more awareness there is about long covid, the more awareness there will be about the impact and treatment of other post viral conditions. It’s ridiculous that they haven’t been taken seriously until now.

very well said @SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

I think it's known historically that people suffer after a bout if illness or surgery but i don't see why this takes precedence over anything else. If people need treatment for it they can get it but from what I'm seeing some symptoms are not serious.... I think the definition of long covid probably needs to be considered a bit more tbh.

I think a greater issue is the Flu that will seemingly be worse this time around. Long covid might be shit but flu will certainly kill off a fair amount of people unfortunately, more so than other years

I never watched the emergency meeting but I'm looking to know what the emergency is and what weight these people have to carry and make out any decisions or changes? Or was it just an ego stroking exercise? Will anything come of it?

It's the large numbers that is the emergency.

if people need treatment for it they can get it but from what I'm seeing some symptoms are not serious

You sure about that treatment? As a parent of a child with long covid, I can tell you there’s really not much the doctors have been able to do for him. Apart from a couple of treatable side effects, he’s had to live with being in pain. If you’re telling me you’d be happy for your child (or any child) to have to unnecessarily go though that, then we have very different standards.

And yes, some symptoms are not as serious, thankfully, but the ones like my son and other kids have had are. You can’t just magic them away because they’re inconvenient for you and you don’t want to live with restrictions any more. And restrictions suck. I get that. But your urgency to get back to “normal” doesn’t mean you have to dismiss and belittle other people’s experiences.

Thanks @mrshoho
I’m amazed that anyone ever gets through my rants but they are very cleansing for my soul so thank you

[quote Meshabubu]@ahoyshipmates - "In order for policy makers to make informed decisions on anything in which their skills or knowledge are lacking, they sometimes need to consult experts in that field"

These so-called 'experts', who are all making absolute fortunes while thousands of businesses go to the wall, homes are being repossessed, and children as young as 12 are killing themselves; will go on TV talking about so-called covid cases and interchange the word infection. Yet not ONE of them appears able to comprehend the most basic of scientific principles, that a primary school child could understand:

PCR testing "Does not provide evidence on the presence of infective virus." from the document 'Monitoring the presence and infection risk of SARS-CoV-2 in the environment: approaches, limitations and interpretation' published by SAGE

"RT-PCR detects presence of viral genetic material in a sample but is not able to distinguish whether infectious virus is present." from the document ''Understanding cycle threshold (Ct) in SARS-CoV-2 RT-PCR A guide for health protection teams' published by the UK Government.[/quote]
One of those 'so-called experts' as you put it, is a personal friend of mine. He is globally renowned in his field, has been on Government advisory panels for decades, and I'm sure he know far more about the situation than you or I do (or indeed, almost everyone else on the planet). He's not making a fortune out of it - he's retired and offering his services to the nation. hth

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

a, ive only been using this username since late October.

b. i could say the same about pro lockdowners and social housing. There has been no thought at all for tenants who are struggling in dilapidated unfit housing all throughout these lockdowns. And before you think this is new from me i have an extensive posting history about it under my previous username HelenaDove. Ive been campaigning on this sort of thing pre covid and pre Grenfell.

And I started out on the early worried about Coronavirus threads. I "switched alligence (if you can phrase it like this) in the summer of last year when i saw how people who cant wear masks were/are being treated. Maybe a bit less othering and ableism would have helped. Peoples attitudes have consequences. Rape survivors and people with disabilities were told they just wernt trying hard enough. I have no wish to ally with people who think this way. I didnt start from an anti lockdown viewpoint. I was pushed there

The problem with this conference, is it's same old faces who have been ultra maskers for a age, you have Michie who I don't really care care what she has to say about covid and greenhalgh who is a rabid masker.

So you won't hear anything new.

[quote puppeteer]@RafaIsTheKingOfClay, okay but you get that if it really is such a huge number (literally 1m people), then we’d expect to be able to see them in day to day life.

Yet I don’t see anyone with significant long term symptoms.

The way I reconcile the figures with observation is that it’s relatively severe (so more people do get a more acutely affected, over a longer period), but that overall the numbers that have long term debilitating symptoms is tiny.

Which isn’t to say it is unimportant.

But to report 1.5% when that includes people with a bit of a headache after a hard bout the disease is not particularly helping anyone’s cause.

Again to say, I do think long covid is an important area to research. There is undoubtedly something there. But it’s not a stop the world moment — not on those flaky stats.[/quote]
Have you read the ons study, what they look into, what symptoms and the level of illness they looked into?

I get the feeling from your posts, that you’ve seen the headline numbers, but don’t really understand what you are talking about.

Not once in the hour and a half did they mention Mental Health

Untrue, the mental health of doctors came up.

I found the presentation extremely well done, and am grateful it was linked to here, or I might not have heard about it.

Hmm Labour politicians . Let’s hope they are not just doing this because they just hate conservatives.

www.economist.com/britain/2021/07/10/some-britons-crave-permanent-pandemic-lockdown