Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Online emergency meeting of British scientists and politicians tomorrow

254 replies

JanFebAnyMonth · 07/07/2021 20:47

www.johnsnowmemo.com/summitdeclaration.html?fbclid=IwAR1ip9v81nlZUTBIN46cKEOhvqmr3n2ISfEGYsUI8WKkb7ZEMnoM6jUEwPQ

JOHN SNOW MEMORANDUM
EMERGENCY SUMMIT AGAINST MASS INFECTION
THURSDAY 8th JULY, 10:00 am

We are holding an emergency summit to outline our concerns about the UK government’s current strategy to abandon most restrictions in England on the 19th July in the midst of a surging pandemic. We have outlined our concerns in a letter to The Lancet (embargoed until 23.30hrs UK time on Wednesday 7 July 2021), now signed by more than 120 of the world's leading scientists. At the summit we will outline our grave concerns about the UK government’s dangerous and reckless strategy, and the urgent steps we need to take to protect the public.

PROGRAMME

Statement from Scientists and Medical Doctors
Professor Trish Greenhalgh, Professor of Primary Care Health Sciences, Medical Sciences Division, University of Oxford
Dr. Richard Horton, Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet
Professor Kailash Chand, Honorary Vice President of the British Medical Association and former deputy chair of the BMA
Dr. Deepti Gurdasani, Clinical Epidemiologist and Senior Lecturer in Machine Learning, Queen Mary University of London

Q&A session
Panel will include all speakers and:
Dr. Rachel Clarke, NHS palliative care doctor and author
Sir David King, former Chief Scientific adviser and chair of Independent SAGE
Professor Susan Michie, Professor of Health Psychology, University College London and member of Independent SAGE
Caroline Lucas, MP, Former Leader of the Green Party of England and Wales
Richard Burgon, MP, Labour MP for Leeds East
Debbie Abrahams, MP, Labour MP for Oldham East and Saddleworth
Philippa Whitford, MP, Scottish National Party MP for Central Ayrshire
Barbara Keeley, MP, Labour MP for Worsley and Eccles South

This event will be livestreamed at: and on Twitter at @allthecitizens.

We will be taking questions from the press and public. Please contact us at [email protected] if you'd like to ask a question.

Please join us at 10am tomorrow

OP posts:
Bluepiano · 08/07/2021 06:07

@SonnetForSpring

I'm beginning to hate living in this country with all the hate spewed at people who are respected within their fields. Hate it. So awful.
I completely agree. Hating and belittling scientists and experts is one of the hallmarks of Trump supporters and the far right. Not something I want to see in this country.
herecomesthsun · 08/07/2021 06:23

@MercyBooth

I'm beginning to hate living in this country with all the hate spewed at people who are respected within their fields. Hate it. So awful.

Like the hate against Professor Karol Sikora. Where a cancer specialist with several decades experience was called a quack.

Ah. There was a controversy that he misrepresented his academic status www.theguardian.com/science/2009/may/22/karol-sikora-honorary-professor-imperial-college

I wouldn't call him a quack, however he has a reputation for being a bit eccentric.

www.farrightwatch.net/2020/06/the-right-wings-favourite-crazy.html

herecomesthsun · 08/07/2021 06:31

main text is here

THE DECLARATION
MASS INFECTION IS NOT AN OPTION: WE MUST DO MORE TO PROTECT OUR YOUNG
First published in The Lancet, 7 July 2021

As the third wave of the pandemic takes hold across England, the UK Government plans to further re-open the nation. Implicit in this decision is the acceptance that infections will surge, but that this does not matter because vaccines have “broken the link between infection and mortality”1.

On July 19, 2021—branded as Freedom Day—almost all restrictions are set to end. We believe this decision is dangerous and premature.
An end to the pandemic through population immunity requires enough of the population to be immune to prevent exponential growth of SARS-CoV-2. Population immunity is unlikely to be achieved without much higher levels of vaccination than can be reasonably expected by July 19, 2021. Proportionate mitigations will be needed to avoid hundreds of thousands of new infections, until many more are vaccinated. Nevertheless, the UK Government's intention to ease restrictions from July 19, 2021, means that immunity will be achieved by vaccination for some people but by natural infection for others (predominantly the young). The UK Health Secretary has stated that daily cases could reach 100 000 per day over the summer months of 2021.2

The link between infection and death might have been weakened, but it has not been broken, and infection can still cause substantial morbidity in both acute and long-term illness. We have previously pointed to the dangers of relying on immunity by natural infection,3 and we have five main concerns with the UK Government's plan to lift all restrictions at this stage of the pandemic.

First, unmitigated transmission will disproportionately affect unvaccinated children and young people who have already suffered greatly. Official UK Government data show that as of July 4, 2021, 51% of the total UK population have been fully vaccinated and 68% have been partially vaccinated. Even assuming that approximately 20% of unvaccinated people are protected by previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, this still leaves more than 17 million people with no protection against COVID-19. Given this, and the high transmissibility of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant, exponential growth will probably continue until millions more people are infected, leaving hundreds of thousands of people with long-term illness and disability.4

This strategy risks creating a generation left with chronic health problems and disability, the personal and economic impacts of which might be felt for decades to come.

Second, high rates of transmission in schools and in children will lead to significant educational disruption, a problem not addressed by abandoning isolation of exposed children (which is done on the basis of imperfect daily rapid tests).5 The root cause of educational disruption is transmission, not isolation. Strict mitigations in schools alongside measures to keep community transmission low and eventual vaccination of children will ensure children can remain in schools safely.6,7,8 This is all the more important for clinically and socially vulnerable children. Allowing transmission to continue over the summer will create a reservoir of infection, which will probably accelerate spread when schools and universities re-open in autumn.

Third, preliminary modelling data9 suggest the government's strategy provides fertile ground for the emergence of vaccine-resistant variants. This would place all at risk, including those already vaccinated, within the UK and globally. While vaccines can be updated, this requires time and resources, leaving many exposed in the interim. Spread of potentially more transmissible escape variants would disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged in our country and other countries with poor access to vaccines.

Fourth, this strategy will have a significant impact on health services and exhausted health-care staff who have not yet recovered from previous infection waves. The link between cases and hospital admissions has not been broken, and rising case numbers will inevitably lead to increased hospital admissions, applying further pressure at a time when millions of people are waiting for medical procedures and routine care.
Fifth, as deprived communities are more exposed to and more at risk from COVID-19, these policies will continue to disproportionately affect the most vulnerable and marginalised, deepening inequalities.

In light of these grave risks, and given that vaccination offers the prospect of quickly reaching the same goal of population immunity without incurring them, we consider any strategy that tolerates high levels of infection to be both unethical and illogical. The UK Government must reconsider its current strategy and take urgent steps to protect the public, including children. We believe the government is embarking on a dangerous and unethical experiment, and we call on it to pause plans to abandon mitigations on July 19, 2021.

Instead, the government should delay complete re-opening until everyone, including adolescents, have been offered vaccination and uptake is high, and until mitigation measures, especially adequate ventilation (through investment in CO2 monitors and air filtration devices) and spacing (eg, by reducing class sizes), are in place in schools. Until then, public health measures must include those called for by WHO (universal mask wearing in indoor spaces, even for those vaccinated), the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (ventilation and air filtration), and Independent SAGE (effective border quarantine; test, trace isolate, and support). This will ensure that everyone is protected and make it much less likely that we will need further restrictions or lockdowns in the autumn.

herecomesthsun · 08/07/2021 06:44

you can also sign this here docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdlvsrZcvSaoRzzKe66MsnYWAYzmmA1kJ57AwTq4fwWSlYBVA/viewform

I do broadly think they are right about a lot of this.

I think it is hugely important that there is public discussion of these issues at this point.

I wonder how much of this we could actually implement.

TeddingtonTrashbag · 08/07/2021 06:47

@MercyBooth

They’ll be burning books soon

The equivilant of Fahrenheit 451 has already happened on here when the discussion thread on A State of Fear by Laura Dodsworth was derailed then deleted.

Welcome to our world!

This!
PopcornMuncher · 08/07/2021 06:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JanFebAnyMonth · 08/07/2021 07:12

Morning all!

Thanks @herecomesthsun for posting the full text.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 08/07/2021 07:23

@chickenyhead

Air filtration is nowhere near that simple unfortunately. I remember reading last year that even in hospitals with the best filtration systems, covid could still be detected at transmissible levels.

This study is quite detailed but from last year, there will be many more, but I am not looking them up now.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7489049/#!po=0.364964

School classrooms are not closed systems, Hepatitis filtration uses a lot of electricity and has high maintenance costs. Small errors or poor maintenance can lead to increased spread.

It isnt so simple.

I’m not against it but I can see your points. I can’t say either way but good to be discussed.

I’m more wary of anyone who casually suggests smaller classes. It’s very low on acknowledging reality of doing it. Where might the hundreds in the one secondary we use go and how to you replicate across the country. Plus staff.

SamusIsAGirl · 08/07/2021 07:31

I'm aware that it isn't going to be a simple thing to implement smaller class sizes but we have had the largest in Europe and both teachers and pupils suffer in large classes. Plus this is a solution with long term benefits even if initially difficult to implement.

Shame it has to take a global pandemic to implement something that teachers have been asking for decades.

MarshaBradyo · 08/07/2021 07:35

I think there is a fair amount of public demand for smaller classes. I’d like a party that puts education at top, Blair did this iirc as part of campaign.

But we’d need another purpose built building to take the students to do what has been asked here.

PseudoBadger · 08/07/2021 07:56

If you are going to say "scientists" and "experts", make sure you also refer to Johnson and his jokers as "politicians" and "leaders"

JanFebAnyMonth · 08/07/2021 08:40

👍🏻 @PseudoBadger

OP posts:
SamusIsAGirl · 08/07/2021 08:50

That's the thing about being a scientist - you get the evidence and all the blame but people like Johnson et al aim to get all the credit!

I think the problem is people would rather go with those who are wrong but righteous rather than right but uncertain.

An example of this is Kent Hovind and the Creation Adventures series - you can see this on Youtube for free so you don't have to give that abusive grifter any money.

puppeteer · 08/07/2021 08:53

Wow. This is pure hyperbole.

The ONS figures do indeed suggest around 1.5% of cases result in some form of "symptoms persisting for more than four weeks". This seems to be the foundation of their argument.

But that's a hugely broad definition, and the linked NHS advice suggests "most will make a full recovery within 12 weeks".

So the damming headline that it leaves "[...] hundreds of thousands of people with long-term illness and disability" is a gross over-simplification at best.

This is political manoeuvring dressed up in as academic work. Which is a shame, because the figures are significant enough that they certainly merit further investigation. But this kind of effort isn't the way to do it.

It's badly timed too. The press seem to have been captivated by the football results today.

sirfredfredgeorge · 08/07/2021 08:54

So my big problem with this, is that they're way too late, R has been above 1 for months now, the decision to accept it was months ago, why weren't they having their "online emergency meeting" (WTF is that?) eight weeks ago, when the decision was made, rather than today?

It just makes them look opportunistic.

And of course "independent sage" who do absolutely nothing but talk about covid and never cost their restrictions in health terms, let alone other terms.

herecomesthsun · 08/07/2021 09:21

@sirfredfredgeorge

So my big problem with this, is that they're way too late, R has been above 1 for months now, the decision to accept it was months ago, why weren't they having their "online emergency meeting" (WTF is that?) eight weeks ago, when the decision was made, rather than today?

It just makes them look opportunistic.

And of course "independent sage" who do absolutely nothing but talk about covid and never cost their restrictions in health terms, let alone other terms.

Well, it is just before the 12th July announcement, and just after the press conference on 5th July.

It is after we have had huge numbers of children isolating from school and before most schools break up for the summer.

This would be a very good point to put in mitigations for the autumn.

Of course, it would be great if the government had implemented a dynamic plan for schools at the start of the pandemic, but since they didn't do that, better a meeting now than one in the autumn.

"Opportunistic"? No idea where that thought of yours came from.

There are people there from Indie Sage but also other well respected medics and scientists like Trisha Greenhalgh (Professor in Primary Healthcare in Oxford) and Richard Horton (world famous editor of the Lancet which is an outstanding medical journal).

MarshaBradyo · 08/07/2021 09:28

@puppeteer

Wow. This is pure hyperbole.

The ONS figures do indeed suggest around 1.5% of cases result in some form of "symptoms persisting for more than four weeks". This seems to be the foundation of their argument.

But that's a hugely broad definition, and the linked NHS advice suggests "most will make a full recovery within 12 weeks".

So the damming headline that it leaves "[...] hundreds of thousands of people with long-term illness and disability" is a gross over-simplification at best.

This is political manoeuvring dressed up in as academic work. Which is a shame, because the figures are significant enough that they certainly merit further investigation. But this kind of effort isn't the way to do it.

It's badly timed too. The press seem to have been captivated by the football results today.

That’s true. The only outcome will be press and it won’t get as much.
Enb76 · 08/07/2021 09:30

world famous editor of the Lancet which is an outstanding medical journal

Used to be an outstanding medical journal - peer reviewing is not what it once was.

'More recently, Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, wrote that “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness”'

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572812/

herecomesthsun · 08/07/2021 09:36

[quote Enb76]world famous editor of the Lancet which is an outstanding medical journal

Used to be an outstanding medical journal - peer reviewing is not what it once was.

'More recently, Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, wrote that “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness”'

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572812/[/quote]
Hmm, publishing in the Lancet was always a top choice, probably THE top choice, for medical doctors doing research, maybe along with Nature (though that's broader than just medicine)

There is a whole school of philosophy reflecting critically on how science is done - and looking at this thoughtfully is a good thing.

That doesn't in itself change the position of the Lancet at the top of its field, you know.

That doesn't diminish

Madhairday · 08/07/2021 09:39

@MercyBooth

And re long Covid - watch that get dismissed by the Govt and their scientific advisors when the post-pandemic disability benefit claims roll in. It will be found to by "psychosomatic" and hardly anyone will be entitled to disability benefits for it. Guaranteed

YY @Twintwix Ive said exactly the same thing three or four times on other threads.

You see I completely agree that this will happen because of the Tories track record with people with disabilities. But what baffles me is that this argument has here been used to shut down the concern of these scientists. Surely if this is true, then we should be listening to these scientists in order to minimise the spread and so minimise the amount of people who won't get government support for long covid?

Makes no sense.

MarshaBradyo · 08/07/2021 09:42

There might be a couple not on I Sage posters respect but aren’t all the MPs opposition? And only a handful too.

There isn’t anything here that will influence - and quite far from calling an emergency meeting which would suggest a recognised group talking to those in power.

It seems to be overstating impact somewhat.

Maybe some press but anything gets in the press these days if the football doesn’t override it that is

Enb76 · 08/07/2021 09:45

That doesn't in itself change the position of the Lancet at the top of its field, you know.

McDonalds is also at the top of its field - it just means its successful it doesn't mean its any good. The Lancet originated to puncture the quackishness that it saw as rife in the medical community - hence the name (as in lancing a boil). It is now part of the very same cohort - publishing discredited articles which it could, if it had taken the time to make sure things were properly peer reviewed, have avoided - all under Mr Horton's watch I might add.

I work in academia and watch paper after pointless paper get churned out because the accolade is in being published, it doesn't matter much what you publish as the peer reviewing is dire and lets almost anything through. I don't know what the answer is.

Lessstressedhemum · 08/07/2021 09:45

Being an MP and a scientist are not mutually exclusive. Neither is being an MP and a doctor.

Philippa Whitford is a highly respected, internationally known NHS surgeon who still spends her time off working in my local hospital. She also does voluntary work as a breast cancer surgeon in Palestine, giving care to women who would otherwise be left untreated.
She is a knowledgeable, experienced and commited woman, who has public health at the forefront of her politics. Why shouldn't she be allowed to air her concerns?

TheReluctantPhoenix · 08/07/2021 09:45

The whole thing is a balancing act.

We cannot be overwhelmed with COVID, with people dying in homes and on streets.

Equally, we cannot lock down forever, destroying young people’s lives. They have a right to meet and reproduce. Ultimately, that is the prerequisite for existence.

You have to trust that they have looked at the modelling and seen we can cope.

There is no perfect solution and, despite what they say, they can lock down quickly again if absolutely necessary (vaccine breakout, for instance).

The group referred to by the OP are entitled to make their point, but most experts are now leaning the other way, and that is why the government are unlocking.

Twintwix · 08/07/2021 09:56

@Wildewoodz honestly, these things do no cut transmission by 50%. That's very naïve. Don't you think they would be one of the biggest answers to this crisis if that was the case. If a £90 machine off Amazon could solve half the problem, the world wouldn't be in this mess. And no, there won't be enough of these going about for every classroom in the UK! Madness.