Austalian state likely can't contain Delta, will let it rip

[starfro]

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-07/nsw-delta-variant-may-never-be-controlled/100273956

Be thankful that here most vulnerable people are double jabbed, whereas over there it's far, far fewer.

Delta cannot be contained, it's too transmissible.

I think us Brits should be rightly proud of our vaccine development and roll out. We had almost all the main vaccine candidates carry out trials here. My friend was on the Pfizer trial and I was on the AZ one. Hours and hours of our time with weekly testing and surveys and regular bloods , still ongoing now by the way.
So yes I am proud of that and it’s contribution to bringing the pandemic to a speedier end. it is consequently very annoying when non expert politicians and even health ministers that should know better ( looking at Macron and a few Aussie politicians too) rubbish the efforts, putting people off a very good vaccine that is being deployed throughout the world.

That is a very good point! It seems to me a cultural thing for Aussies to do down the English 🙄.

This is quite a long thread - with a ludicrously inaccurate title - with mostly the English ill-wishing and criticising and declaring certain doom for Australians!

It really isn't illwishing.

“...with mostly the English ill-wishing and criticising and declaring certain doom for Australians!”

Can you give an example?

Sorry, should have been clearer, specifically the ill-wishing. Where have you read this?

I could go through it, post by post, and pluck out some examples. Or you could read the thread - or indeed any thread that suddenly veers to discussion of Australia and NZ to deflect from the topic at hand.

I think that is the lens you are viewing it through. I don't think anyone wishes ill at all. There is obviously concern and discussion about the future for all countries. This thread is discussing what might happen when Australia and NZ opens up so that is the focus of this thread. By its nature a discussion discusses possible outcomes... this does not equate to illwishing.

As someone with family over there I am also personally vested in this - we are very keen to visit when safe to do so.

@milkyaqua

I could go through it, post by post, and pluck out some examples. Or you could read the thread - or indeed any thread that suddenly veers to discussion of Australia and NZ to deflect from the topic at hand.

I think you are determined to view all comments about this topic as negative or critical regardless of the context or what is intended.

This thread is specifically about Australia so It stands to reason it would be discussed on the thread. Australia and NZ are always likely to come into any discussion where a zero covid strategy is discussed.

@sashagabadon

I think us Brits should be rightly proud of our vaccine development and roll out. We had almost all the main vaccine candidates carry out trials here. My friend was on the Pfizer trial and I was on the AZ one. Hours and hours of our time with weekly testing and surveys and regular bloods , still ongoing now by the way. So yes I am proud of that and it’s contribution to bringing the pandemic to a speedier end. it is consequently very annoying when non expert politicians and even health ministers that should know better ( looking at Macron and a few Aussie politicians too) rubbish the efforts, putting people off a very good vaccine that is being deployed throughout the world.

Yes, I think it is something to be very proud of. Interesting that Europe didn’t seem to participate in any of the trials. I’m not saying that in a Brexiteer way, just realised it a few months ago and thought it was curious. I’m guessing the EU must have stricter rules around clinical trials, or something like that.

I could go through it, post by post, and pluck out some examples

Well, that is actually what I am asking.

I have read the thread and took away a different perspective from all the varied comments, and was keen to understand what made you feel that way, especially regarding the ill-wishes.

I think some of Europe maybe Spain/ Germany had some trials and presumably France would have done had their vaccine been a success but in the UK alone, we had the AZ trials, the Pfzier trials, the novovax trials, the J&J trials and possibly Moderna too (I am not sure about that one) . Plus all the treatment trials in many hospitals.
This was a massive massive task, involving literally thousands of volunteers and staff - redeployed from all sorts of disciplines.
I know where I am participating the volunteers were from all walks of life - but many were NHS workers like me, and the clinical staff were medical students, redeployed nurses and juniors docs, not to mention the admin involved of collating and reporting all the results etc. Under extreme pressure and cyber attacks!
It is not luck that the UK has done well in the vaccine, it's a result of all this expertise and our ability to set up and carry out this sort of research and mass trials at very short notice. It also helped that so many people were keen to volunteer. They recruited to the trial I am on in just over a week. Unprecedented really.
Many of the nurses/ junior docs are from Europe and all over the world of course. I must have met every nationality during my checks over the past 18 months or so. It was a joint collaboration.
It is still ongoing too - I have my hopefully final visit end of August - tbc.

Delta is shredding success stories left right and center.

Countries that kept COVID out completely have suddenly developed hockey-stick shaped graphs.

NSW may have just been unlucky. We know that most people never pass on COVID and a few spread it around like crazy (superspreaders) just because that's how their bodies work. If a city is unlucky and just happens to have a couple of superspreaders in an industry that can't shut down during a lockdown (like food/medicine logistics, keeping the lights on or whatever), well, before you know it, you've got clusters blossoming all over the place.

I get that Australians are feeling frustrated right now, but I think there is the tendency (not just in Oz, in every country) to see COVID as a morality play, where people who do things "properly" get rewarded with zero COVID, and people who are "bad/lazy/flout rules" get "punished" with the virus. The course of the epidemic, meanwhile, suggests that a) it is really really hard to keep Delta out, and b) luck and chance play a large role in the extent and severity of outbreaks.

We've never had many deaths here in Japan. I don't know if we really did anything so very marvellous and we have never had ANY kind of real lockdown. To a large extent I think we just got lucky.

I hope Ozzies are not going to start tearing their fellow citizens apart.

None of us should be smug. Things can change very quickly.

Amen. Humility is important. All countries have made mistakes in this pandemic.

@sashagabadon Dozens of countries took part in vaccine trials, Germany has had 25, the UK 18, the US an amazing 70!

covid19.trackvaccines.org/trials-vaccines-by-country/

It was very much an international effort, we played our part, more than many others and thats fantastic but why down play down the efforts of other countries citizens?

Unless its just playing politics?

I think perhaps some of the issue re. smugness comes from being more sensitive to things when you're in a bad situation anyway, especially perceived criticism from outsiders. When we were in the middle of our winter lockdown and everyone was finding things really tough, a comment from an Aussie about their lack of restrictions could easily be taken as gloating even if it was only intended as a neutral observation. Likewise, when our vaccinations were picking up steam and most other countries were barely getting off the ground, comments from us about how great our program was probably felt like we were rubbing their faces in the possibility of restrictions lasting for ages, even if the intent was to innocently celebrate our own country being good at something for once. Not to say that both countries don't have a few arseholes who really do celebrate the misfortune of others, though.

@Kokeshi123

Delta is shredding success stories left right and center.

Countries that kept COVID out completely have suddenly developed hockey-stick shaped graphs.

NSW may have just been unlucky. We know that most people never pass on COVID and a few spread it around like crazy (superspreaders) just because that's how their bodies work. If a city is unlucky and just happens to have a couple of superspreaders in an industry that can't shut down during a lockdown (like food/medicine logistics, keeping the lights on or whatever), well, before you know it, you've got clusters blossoming all over the place.

I get that Australians are feeling frustrated right now, but I think there is the tendency (not just in Oz, in every country) to see COVID as a morality play, where people who do things "properly" get rewarded with zero COVID, and people who are "bad/lazy/flout rules" get "punished" with the virus. The course of the epidemic, meanwhile, suggests that a) it is really really hard to keep Delta out, and b) luck and chance play a large role in the extent and severity of outbreaks.

We've never had many deaths here in Japan. I don't know if we really did anything so very marvellous and we have never had ANY kind of real lockdown. To a large extent I think we just got lucky.

I hope Ozzies are not going to start tearing their fellow citizens apart.

Also yes, all of this.

@Kokeshi123

Delta is shredding success stories left right and center.

Countries that kept COVID out completely have suddenly developed hockey-stick shaped graphs.

NSW may have just been unlucky. We know that most people never pass on COVID and a few spread it around like crazy (superspreaders) just because that's how their bodies work. If a city is unlucky and just happens to have a couple of superspreaders in an industry that can't shut down during a lockdown (like food/medicine logistics, keeping the lights on or whatever), well, before you know it, you've got clusters blossoming all over the place.

I get that Australians are feeling frustrated right now, but I think there is the tendency (not just in Oz, in every country) to see COVID as a morality play, where people who do things "properly" get rewarded with zero COVID, and people who are "bad/lazy/flout rules" get "punished" with the virus. The course of the epidemic, meanwhile, suggests that a) it is really really hard to keep Delta out, and b) luck and chance play a large role in the extent and severity of outbreaks.

We've never had many deaths here in Japan. I don't know if we really did anything so very marvellous and we have never had ANY kind of real lockdown. To a large extent I think we just got lucky.

I hope Ozzies are not going to start tearing their fellow citizens apart.

I agree. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought some people seemed to feel that all deaths from covid were avoidable and therefore someone's fault when they did occur.

Hindsight is always 20:20. I'm sure every country will look back and identify things they might have done differently knowing what we know now.

We also have to acknowledge that where a country has a weakness that is systemic in nature it cannot simply be resolved overnight no matter how much you might know that it would be better if it was changed or how much money you throw at it.

@Blackbird2020

I could go through it, post by post, and pluck out some examples

Well, that is actually what I am asking.

I have read the thread and took away a different perspective from all the varied comments, and was keen to understand what made you feel that way, especially regarding the ill-wishes.

Well, it can be hard to read tone online but I really didn't perceive comments like the following as genuine expressions of solidarity or concern:

*Oh yes OZ is such a shining beacon...stranding thousands of its citizens abroad and still they didn't keep delta out

At some point the borders will be opened. And then if it's not the Delta variant, it will be one of the many other variants that are around that will spread in NSW. It's just a matter of time, sunshine. Welcome to reality.

not so smug now that they realise they should have been cracking on with the vacinnes instead of shunning the Astra Zeneca. They are panicking now!*

But I mean, correct me if it appears different to you. Most people are genuinely concerned, but you can't deny that there are some people who deliberately post nasty things. I suppose they are angry within themselves for some reason. I really don't think it will make them feel any better.

There was a really horrendous thread titled "Hasn't New Zealand done soooo well" about lots of babies and children being hospitalised with RSV. I mean, I really don't think there are many Brits who look at a story about sick children and think, "haha, great." And if you find some idiot Australian saying horrid things, don't assume that they represent the views of most people.

@psychomath

I think perhaps some of the issue re. smugness comes from being more sensitive to things when you're in a bad situation anyway, especially perceived criticism from outsiders. When we were in the middle of our winter lockdown and everyone was finding things really tough, a comment from an Aussie about their lack of restrictions could easily be taken as gloating even if it was only intended as a neutral observation. Likewise, when our vaccinations were picking up steam and most other countries were barely getting off the ground, comments from us about how great our program was probably felt like we were rubbing their faces in the possibility of restrictions lasting for ages, even if the intent was to innocently celebrate our own country being good at something for once. Not to say that both countries don't have a few arseholes who really do celebrate the misfortune of others, though.

I think this is very true. And similarly, we may be overly sensitive to some comments about "difficult times ahead".

I think perhaps some of the issue re. smugness comes from being more sensitive to things when you're in a bad situation anyway, especially perceived criticism from outsiders.

Definitely. And often, when people come across as "gloating," it's really more a case of people repeating things about their own situation that they are happy about because they are fearful about the situation elsewhere and are trying to reassure themselves.

@Kokeshi123

I think perhaps some of the issue re. smugness comes from being more sensitive to things when you're in a bad situation anyway, especially perceived criticism from outsiders.

Definitely. And often, when people come across as "gloating," it's really more a case of people repeating things about their own situation that they are happy about because they are fearful about the situation elsewhere and are trying to reassure themselves.

This is such a great observation. It's all fear-driven. This whole thing has been a nightmare for everyone in different ways.

Thank you for picking out those comments, Callinda. I can see how they’re not supportive, and some must be hard to read if you’re actually in a seemingly endless lockdown right now. But I don’t think anyone was openly wishing ill on Australia right now. It just seemed to me like an insensitive way some posters had of pointing out the failings of the Australian government.

One massive bugbear I have re these discussions is the lack of distinction between citizens going about their lives with the information provided to them by their government, and the governments themselves.

It’s too easy to criticise people, but really we should focus on criticising those in power, they are the ones who have created ambivalence or panic or any other reaction these communities might be experiencing from the pandemic.

I did want to point out that there is also a great deal of COVID research being done in Australia as well, and we have been developing homegrown vaccines too. So it's not like the country has been sitting back and letting everyone else work out the solutions. It was just unlucky that the first one to be ready, although effective at preventing COVID, also caused some false positives on HIV tests. So they decided to stop the trials and try to fix that. If that hadn't happened we would have been in a different position re vaccination right now. There are others in development too.

It’s probably also because the UK has a really strong scientific community. One of the best in the world.