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Covid

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Vaccine is not a real vaccine

136 replies

CheeseWall · 06/07/2021 19:48

Is what my colleague says. Dh and I have had both vaccines and will have our dc vaccinated as soon as this is possible.

My colleague says that the vaccine is not a vaccine per se but that it's 'gene therapy'. He claims to have researched the matter extensively and that people who have had Covid, even asymptomatically, have antibodies, which will protect them from getting very ill.

What spooked me was his claim that the vaccine kills off people's natural antibodies, which they have from having been exposed to the disease and that therefore people who have been vaccinated are only protected against that particular variant whereas those who have antibodies but aren't vaccinated have protection against a range of variants.

Please tell me this is nonsense.

OP posts:
Zippy1510 · 06/07/2021 21:45

I have a PhD in microbiology, teach microbiology at university level and manage my own research group- this is not what gene therapy is and the rest of it is complete nonsensical rubbish.

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 21:52

@Zippy1510!! May I ask you something??

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 21:55

@Zippy1510 - I’ve just been told this when I questioned gene therapy.

Please help me rip into it??

See below from another poster. Sounds off to me:

I know full well how mRNA, gene and even cell therapies work. It's my job to explain it. There are nuances and overlaps and I simply cannot be arsed to explain it all to you because it's irrelevant.

Suffice to say, it doesn't matter how they work but it is NOVEL with novel excipients, and we do not know the dose of S protein they produce, the PK, the biodistribution, carcinogenicity or neurotoxicity of these approaches because unlike regular drugs, you don't have to product these data for a vaccine. Because the vaccine is assumed to be a virus or part virus (natural or synthetic) and as such is well understood. To ignore the differences in MoA for ChAd DNA or mRNA approaches and the additional risks they present is supremely lax of the regulators.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 06/07/2021 22:22

It's a vaccine

A vaccine is something that stimulates an immune response to an illness

The oldest vaccines were inactivated or live attenuated ones ie injecting the whole disease causing agent but killing it or modifying it to be less harmful but still induce immunity. The problem with those is that sometimes they weren't dead or inactive enough and they did cause disease eg polio vaccines that caused polio. Modern vaccines can't cause the disease because they don't actually contain the whole pathogen.

Then we discovered how to use viruses to insert just part of a pathogen into immune cells so eg a modified harmless adenovirus (cold virus) infects the immune cells and introduces a protein from the pathogen (in the case the Covid spike protein) and the immune system makes antibodies against it without risking infection with the whole organism.

The RNA vaccines are just a step further on this approach. Instead of using a virus to put a protein into a cell they just put the RNA code directly into the immune cell to make the spike protein so that the immune cells can make antibodies to it.

The key point is that the RNA does not integrate into your genome. It does not enter the nucleus of any cell so it cannot mess with your chromosomes. It stays in the cytoplasm of the cell and gets translated into the target protein and that's all it does.

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 22:26

Thank you @CovoidOfAllHumanity

So what does this mean??

“and we do not know the dose of S protein they produce, the PK, the biodistribution, carcinogenicity or neurotoxicity of these approaches because unlike regular drugs, you don't have to product these data for a vaccine. Because the vaccine is assumed to be a virus or part virus (natural or synthetic) and as such is well understood. To ignore the differences in MoA for ChAd DNA or mRNA approaches and the additional risks they present is supremely lax of the regulators.”

SingingInTheShithouse · 06/07/2021 22:29

Yeah, some covidiots are hoovering this sort of misinformation & spouting it back out like they just won the lottery 🙄 as above, based very loosely in fact, but misunderstood completely

We have friends in this camp, they've actually said it out loud too 🥴they've just emigrated to Oz, we have family in the same town & in normal times would have loved them to have met each other as they'll likely get on

Not bloody likely in current times, when that family all work in hospitals/medicine/science

shouldistop · 06/07/2021 22:32

Research = twatting about on Facebook

MrsFin · 06/07/2021 22:36

has he just been titting about on the Internet?

😁😁

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 06/07/2021 22:53

UndercoverToad sadly I cannot translate as I don't speak bollox

This person appears to be trying to apply drug development concepts to a vaccine in a way that is clearly invalid

Of course we don't know the 'dose' of spike protein produced. It's going to vary between people and furthermore it doesn't matter. What matters is the antibodies and the T cell immunity that the spike protein induced which are measured in all the published trials.

Similarly a concept like bio distribution, can't really apply to a bit of RNA or an adenovirus. Those are concepts you can only measure for a drug getting distributed around the body. The only bits you could apply that to might be adjuvants which are things added to vaccines to stimulate a bigger immune response eg Aluminium sometimes in the past controversially but not now. Apparently the mRNA vaccines have a lipid adjuvant (I just googled that) but lipids are pretty natural things and I would imagine it would have to be a very tiny amount so I can't get worked up over it.

AnxiousWeirdo · 06/07/2021 22:56

"research "= YouTube.

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 22:58

@Jenala how would the nanolipid be expected to just stay in the injection site area if it helps the MRNA to travel around?

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2021 23:03

Your colleague is a bellend who has been extensively researching conspiracy theories.

He is spouting bollocks.

He should get off facebook

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 23:05

@CovoidOfAllHumanity thank you!

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 06/07/2021 23:10

I have to disagree with some of what Jenala said

The reason all the vaccines are using the spike protein as the antigen is because it's essential to the function of the virus. It can't get into cells without it so it is really unlikely that some new variant will evolve that doesn't have a Spike protein as it would be so evolved that it would basically a completely different virus.

Natural immunity is not usually better than vaccine derived immunity. It's usually less long lasting for one thing. That's why people who have had confirmed Civid are still advised to be vaccinated. Vaccines are engineered eg with adjuvants to evoke a strong immune response whereas the natural virus of course hopes not to provoke the immune system to attack it and has defences that the vaccine antigen lacks. Vaccine immunity is usually therefore better than natural immunity plus of course you don't risk getting very sick by being vaccinated.

I have not much idea about nanolipids. That just translates as teeny weeny tiny fat particle to me and does not sound very scary. It sounds more like something L'Oréal would try to claim was in my face cream than anything.

Dustyboots · 06/07/2021 23:17

nanolipids. That just translates as teeny weeny tiny fat particle to me and does not sound very scary. It sounds more like something L'Oréal would try to claim was in my face cream than anything.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090610192431.htm

UndercoverToad · 06/07/2021 23:22

@Dustyboots

I think a nanolipid is different to a nano particle that you breath in…

Tinpotspectator · 06/07/2021 23:23

My neighbour is a doctor and we have a good chuckle about the bollocks in some of these conspiracy videos.

chickenyhead · 06/07/2021 23:33

[quote Dustyboots]nanolipids. That just translates as teeny weeny tiny fat particle to me and does not sound very scary. It sounds more like something L'Oréal would try to claim was in my face cream than anything.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090610192431.htm[/quote]
2009.

It is 2021.

JaninaDuszejko · 06/07/2021 23:41

Suffice to say, it doesn't matter how they work but it is NOVEL with novel excipients

The ingredient list of Pfizer is easy to find and contains no novel excipients. No-one would risk trying to get a novel excipient past the regulators unless there were very clear benefits and Pfizer went with an excipient list they knew wasn't fully optimised for long term storage (it would take too long to do that stability work when they were focussed on being first to market) but was all safe and well known excipients.

Ingredients list:
ALC-0315 = (4-hydroxybutyl) azanediyl)bis (hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate)
ALC-0159 = 2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide
1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine
cholesterol
All lipids that form the liposome the mRNA is delivered to the cell in, some are naturally occurring in the body, some are there to stabilise the liposome so it persists in the body longer, this allows us to reduce the dose making the injection volume smaller and reducing the cost.

potassium chloride
potassium dihydrogen phosphate
sodium chloride
disodium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate
Salts and buffer components. These maintain the pH and osmolality of the vaccine. All completely standard excipients.

sucrose
Standard excipient found in many drug products, stabilises the drug product
water for injections
Standard ingredient, WFI water is super pure and has very low levels of endotoxin

FictionalCharacter · 07/07/2021 00:09

I should know better than to read these posts but I couldn’t resist.

Unfortunately “I’ve researched this” now often means “I’ve looked at stuff on the web but don’t know how to select reliable sources or fact check them”. Virology, immunology and vaccinology are incredibly complicated, and the oversimplification that’s needed to publish info on this stuff in a way that can be reasonably understood by non-specialists leads to misunderstanding and distortion. There are also plenty of people who are happy to publish their own ill-informed ideas or thought experiments as if they were facts, and others who just love wild conspiracy theories.

I work in a university, used to do (actual) research and my colleagues are doing a lot of Covid research, including vaccine research. I have read tons of research proposals and findings. None of the Cov vaccines are gene therapy by any practical definition. The research and clinical trials were defined, registered and approved as vaccine trials, not gene therapy trials. The product is defined as a vaccine not a gene therapy product. Its purpose is to be a vaccine - to elicit an immune response against a virus, not to produce a human gene product which is what a gene therapy agent does. None of the vaccines can change your DNA. Some of the techniques involved in the new types of vaccines are in common with techniques used in gene therapy. That does not mean that the vaccines are gene therapy.

Vaccines do not kill off your natural antibodies. The vaccines direct an immune response against the Cov spike protein, not against anything else and certainly not against antibodies. Plenty of people have been tested for natural antibodies and vaccine induced antibodies and found to have both.

As for variants, both naturally acquired antibodies and vaccine-acquired antibodies will protect you against any variant that has a spike protein that’s similar enough to the one your immune system encountered. If a future variant has a different enough spike protein, it will escape both the vaccine and your natural antibodies. This has been known from the start. So far, none of the variants including Delta have completely escaped the vaccines but we do see reduced (but still good) vaccine efficacy, i.e. some vaccinated people will still get sick. This is being very closely monitored and intensively researched. Then there’s T cell immunity which the vaccines also induce - it’s not all about antibodies.

If your colleague can give a link to that claim I’d be very interested to have a look. The most generous interpretation I can think of is that someone read something that had a grain of truth and got confused.

The idea that thousands of lab and clinical scientists like my colleagues, all around the world, have produced vaccines that only work against one variant and destroy natural immunity, then lied to us all about it, is ridiculous and insulting. It would mean they’re all either incompetent or corrupt, and they certainly are not.

FictionalCharacter · 07/07/2021 00:13

@RedToothBrush

Your colleague is a bellend who has been extensively researching conspiracy theories.

He is spouting bollocks.

He should get off facebook

Actually @RedToothBrush you said it better than I did and in a lot fewer words.
LeanneBrownsLonelyBraincell · 07/07/2021 06:20

Roll your eyes at him and start calling him Dunning. Or Kruger.

GCAcademic · 07/07/2021 06:26

@shouldistop

Research = twatting about on Facebook
Let’s not be mean. He might have used YouTube as well, what with his research being “extensive”, and that.
Cavalierqueen · 07/07/2021 06:27

Someone on Facebook posted about the vaccine last week saying that when they switch on 5g, vaccinated people will become robots. I replied that I was really excited to hear this, eternal life, freedom from anxiety and panic attacks, not having to think about what to cook for supper etc. I asked him if he had an approximate date of activation so I could plan accordingly. He didn't appreciate it and called me a cunting sheep. I rather like sheep as well as robots so thanked him. Funnily enough I am blocked now Grin

Fluffycloudland77 · 07/07/2021 08:01

I had an RGN tell me millions of people will die from 5G.

I’m hoping nursing now being a graduate profession will weed people like this out.

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