Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

[secretintrovert]

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

There's a difference between saying 'well, we all need to drive so let's take some basic safety measures (seatbelts, speed limits) and all carry on driving' and saying 'let's forget all the basic safety measures, get rid of them all, and everyone can drive exactly how they want'.

We're doing the latter not the former.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

There's a difference between saying 'well, we all need to drive so let's take some basic safety measures (seatbelts, speed limits) and all carry on driving' and saying 'let's forget all the basic safety measures, get rid of them all, and everyone can drive exactly how they want'.

We're doing the latter not the former.

This.

@MarshaBradyo

But if it's all about 'personal responsibility' now, surely that should apply to vaccines for 12+ too? What about children and parents who both want the vaccine - why are they not allowed to take 'personal responsibility' for that? In terms of individual risk assessments there may be very good reasons to think the benefits outweigh the risks (e.g. parent who is immunocompromised and who cannot respond to the vaccine so remains at very high risk of death / severe disease from covid infection brought home from school)

So, 'personal responsibly' to go maskless on a train or other indoor public space. But not allowed personal responsibility to smoke on a train or other indoor public space.

Why one and not the other? Why the one that gives no pleasure and costs society a lot (Covid and Long Covid) but not the other, that at least balances out the possible death and illness by giving a lot of enjoyment and stress relief, can help reduce obesity, and contributes huge amount of tax money to the national economy?

We can't say we've vaccinated those most at risk of Long Covid. For a start, it's very possible vaccines don't prevent it (except indirectly through herd immunity of majority population vaccinated - and therefore then not much transmission). And as Chris Whitty has warned, it can affect young people. Who are mostly still not fully vaccinated.

[quote theemperorhasnoclothes]@MarshaBradyo

But if it's all about 'personal responsibility' now, surely that should apply to vaccines for 12+ too? What about children and parents who both want the vaccine - why are they not allowed to take 'personal responsibility' for that? In terms of individual risk assessments there may be very good reasons to think the benefits outweigh the risks (e.g. parent who is immunocompromised and who cannot respond to the vaccine so remains at very high risk of death / severe disease from covid infection brought home from school)[/quote]
I hope those who are frustrated waiting get a decision from JCVI soon. I understood Chris Whitty’s reasons on why safety is a higher hurdle for children but if I had a vulnerable child in age range I’d feel the same.

Or other situations you’ve put. I’m not against vaccine choice, far from it, I’ve decided for 16 year old and will take on risk responsibility. But I do think that any decision for 12 plus is really onerous in terms of responsibility and data needs to be thorough.

I hope they decide soon though (there’s an investigation atm into a death in US maybe a factor? Not sure)

Wrt vaccines for over 12s. We don't currently have enough supply. AZ not approved for children.

Hopefully we will get more supplies soon. Enough to do both children and boosters for the vulnerable.

In the meantime, we should definitely be offering it to CEV children (CV too, if enough supply).

I hope they decide soon though (there’s an investigation atm into a death in US maybe a factor? Not sure)

More than one child has died from Covid. America continues to advise vaccinating children over 12. Their medical authorities have emphasised that there's a higher risk from Covid than from extremely rare potential vaccine side effects. Which have so far been mild.

eu.usatoday.com/amp/5320167001

It’s a truly awful situation, but there isn’t really any alternative.

100 global experts say otherwise.

I still agree with Chris Whitty on not rushing.

What timescale would you prefer? Go ahead now and if the investigation is a link that’s ok

Luckily we just get to comment from sidelines whilst those who very transparently take weight of decision do the work

@theemperorhasnoclothes

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-06/children-need-covid-protection-vaccines-experts-say/100269228

Look at the difference in attitude towards children catching covid in this article from Australia and here.

Children will die - if infection levels get high enough, of course they will. A tiny percentage of a massive number is still a big number. Basic maths. And it's preventable.

All the mitigations mentioned in that article aren't being done in UK schools. It's unbelievable what we're doing.

Remember in the first wave and the second when the government were saying 'schools are safe', 'children don't catch it', 'children don't transmit it'.

Now they're basically saying 'we know they catch and transmit it and we're going to let them get it'. Why are parents putting up with this shit?

Agreed! Very alarming as in England and rest of UK this short sighted treatment of future tax payers, wealth creators, pension providers and furlough national debt payers will also be eligible to vote. This outrageous attitude is essentially negligence by design as the typical we don’t care and don’t give a crap behaviour. Presumably because in strict scientific terms the return on political and capital investment is too much for the likely potential risk of child Covid fatalities and life long Covid complications. The current government is seemingly past its sell by date having had it’s share of the nation’s resources (personal corrupt enrichment) and are not playing the long game because it will be the mess for others at a later date in government to clean up. The incompetent government is happy to build Nightingale hospital white elephants with comic inadequate staffing and medical resources for publicity! This is of course wasting more finite financial resources (government borrowing) we don’t have. This is simply incompetent government marketing and PR clowns thinks the British public will not see these literally unfit for purpose projects as anything but a joke from people who don’t know the first thing about basic supply side resource management. The government Covidiots presumably thought nice new shinny hospitals built by the capable British army is a good PR stunt despite not having any medical staff nor necessary equipment for these sheds to operate to save lives other than apparently usage as temporary sad cold storage facilities for the inevitable. But because this was deemed to highlight more political soft power PR than any Nightingale schools - this home goal was allowed to be auctioned. British state schools on the other hand are mostly old, built initially for fewer pupils and so not only over crowded but with Covid entrapment enclosed non ventilation spaces. Basically you could not make this stuff up as to the incompetent government Covidiots in charge. Don’t even mention the clown in charge of education!!

Then of course you have those going on about hoarding too many vaccines whilst others countries wait to do vulnerable

Plus those who think it insane to do children

I’m more pro vaccine here though with data

www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccine-side-effects-vs-covid-19-damage-theres-no-comparison

Which would you rather have: muscle fatigue or permanent lung damage?

Would you prefer mild, short-term inflammation around the heart or severe damage to that organ that could lead to heart failure?

Would you rather have moderate pain in your upper arm for a few days or increase the possibility of developing Parkinson’s disease or Alzheimer’s disease?

These are just a few examples of the stark contrast between the side effects of COVID-19 vaccines and developing the disease itself.

Then of course you have those going on about hoarding too many vaccines whilst others countries wait to do vulnerable

The risk of Long Covid (health and economic) means everyone is vulnerable.

Biden is right that the best and quickest way to get the whole world vaccinated is a temporary patent waiver. The problem is he's got a fight on his hands. The drugs companies don't want to, even if it's only temporary.

Another good post @ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

@Dustyboots Lawrence Gilder on Twitter collates all the day’s figures, and now includes the age ranges of people who died.
He also reports vaccines given, does regional spreadsheets. It’s really helpful.

With this huge rise in new infections I fear a new UK variant of the Delta virus, I just hope that the vaccines will still be up to protect us from severe disease. I for one will continue to wear a mask in all indoor crowded places, we are all left to our own decisions now, it is a different world and a bleaker one we now live in, but in time, treatment hopefully will become better. I feel for all the vulnerable and children who will not have the same freedoms as others.

The average age of covid deaths is higher than the average life expectancy in the UK, so technically older folks are dying later than pre covid.

You don't understand averages, do you?

@theemperorhasnoclothes

There's a difference between saying 'well, we all need to drive so let's take some basic safety measures (seatbelts, speed limits) and all carry on driving' and saying 'let's forget all the basic safety measures, get rid of them all, and everyone can drive exactly how they want'.

We're doing the latter not the former.

It’s more like saying “we’ve taken away those things but cars are made of soft rubber.” If you crash it’s unlikely to kill you anymore. Anyone under 30 has been driving these soft cars since last year. They are worried that unless everyone gets back in their cars there won’t be any roads left to drive on.

I think with vaccines it is important to remember that the JCVI (an independent body by the way) hasnt said that they will NOT vaccine the over 12s just that a decision hasnt been made.

With the school holidays coming and a lack of supply we should be pleased they are taking there time. The US and Israel started when the other age groups had been completed its just they had a much lower uptake in the over 18s.

There are issues - there is an invesigation into a death

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-vaccine-pfizer-michigan-cdc-b1878262.html

which may come to nothing but I think it is good to circumspect. Yesterday when I had my second vaccine there was a note (the nurse said it was a new thing in the past week) that raised the myocarditis issue particularly in young men under 18 after the second dose.

The UK havent actually second dosed many under 40 men yet - shouldnt we see what are own figures are on this now that it has been seen to be a problem.

This decision needs to be one that is taken slowly - I can see why especially if you have CEV over 12 you want it but ethically saying it is ok for them and then realising there are more risks attached than you thought it dodgy.

And personal responsibility - for a 12+ where does that happen - whose responsibility is it?

I want to give my 12 year old the vaccine - I do. I can see the benefits to it but I also want to make sure that when I do that the risks of it have been properly weighed up. It isnt quite the right time yet and this isnt a decision that should be rushed at all.

My guess is that the vaccine won't be offered to all over 12s at this point, just those deemed CEV and CV. They're taking time to decide who should be on that list and it what order of priority.

@Tealightsandd

So, 'personal responsibly' to go maskless on a train or other indoor public space. But not allowed personal responsibility to smoke on a train or other indoor public space.

Why one and not the other? Why the one that gives no pleasure and costs society a lot (Covid and Long Covid) but not the other, that at least balances out the possible death and illness by giving a lot of enjoyment and stress relief, can help reduce obesity, and contributes huge amount of tax money to the national economy?

We can't say we've vaccinated those most at risk of Long Covid. For a start, it's very possible vaccines don't prevent it (except indirectly through herd immunity of majority population vaccinated - and therefore then not much transmission). And as Chris Whitty has warned, it can affect young people. Who are mostly still not fully vaccinated.

Wearing masks is to protect other people from infection. Just as not smoking in public spaces protects other people from the dangers of secondary smoking. Warning masks or not smoking might be unpleasant for some people but they are for the greater good.

And smoking doesn't actually give 'pleasure'. Most people are happier once they have stopped. What it does give Is temporary relief from the craving for nicotine. It isn't socially acceptable for people to comfort themselves by publicly relieving their cravings for heroine or crack cocaine in a public place, why should nicotine cravings be any different?

Great news though! The HGV driver shortage has been solved by Grant Schnapps, MP and double glazing salesman. This is the quality of thought and problem-solving we require from our politicians and have seen in the covid announcemmejnts. Not enough drivers? Let the ones we've got work longer hours. Hurrah! No hard shoulders on MWays, tired drivers, too much to do. What could possibly go wrong?

I am finding it all a bit scary. Not fully vaccinated myself yet and most parents will not be. In fact it is only around half the population that is. They estimate we need 85% of the population vaccinated to get herd immunity. Long covid is very real and happens to children. I know a 15 year still too ill to attend school a year after covid and they only got it mildly. They are in so much pain. They had no underlying conditions and went from being super sporty to bed bound. When kids are exempt from isolating after exposure in August despite not being vaccinated it will rapidly spread to them all, I get that it is rarely lethal to kids (only around 60 have died from it in the UK) but if estimates are correct and 7% get long covid that is a lot of kids that will end up with long term disabilities.

The HGV driver solution is simple, train more, get the hauliers to pay either voluntary or compulsory.

Building Contractors end up paying a levy to help fund apprentices.

Its not good news. Terrible times ahead