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Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

595 replies

secretintrovert · 05/07/2021 21:52

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

OP posts:
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 07/07/2021 10:28

Are you posting exactly the same post on different threads ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia?

We cannot afford to stay closed, we are vaccinating, the way our economy is connected to others we cannot close our borders, and even if we did it won't work, look at Australia, and I'm sure you know all that, but choose ignore it. Please stop spamming.

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2021 10:30

In NYC you can see the ventilation of your child's classroom and it's graded red to green (no continuous occupancy allowed of red and amber classrooms).

Where do you put the children instead, if you have only got red and amber classrooms?
How long will it take to assess all classrooms?
Who does the assessing?
How pays for changes?
Are children really at risk?
Is this still needed on balance post vaccine programme?
Will this lead to other potential harms and negative health issues?
Are you sure this option hasn't been looked at and decided that it offers little additional benefit in the UK due to our school buildings / weather ?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 07/07/2021 10:56

I don’t think there’s any doubt, scientifically that it would offer benefit. It’s more whether the U.K. government are bothered about doing it, and they can’t be.

Teachers and the health of kids doesn’t feature highly on their agenda. They cost of the long term health issues caused by letting covid rip through kids isn’t going to be their problem.

Ifitquacks · 07/07/2021 11:02

I don’t think there’s any doubt, scientifically that it would offer benefit. It’s more whether the U.K. government are bothered about doing it, and they can’t be

Do you have links to this research? I work in a related field so am interested to see it, particularly with regards to ventilation systems in classrooms, as what I’m hearing from colleagues is that they could cause more harm than good in that environment.
I fully agree however that all classrooms should have opening windows/doors etc, but not just for Covid reasons.

HesterShaw1 · 07/07/2021 11:03

@RedToothBrush

Again I think where we are at is a point where the public have unrealistic expectations and don't understand the situation.

We may have initially been persuing a zero covid strategy once a lockdown was announced. I think it became obvious by about 1st August last year when Manchester was put into higher levels of restrictions that was going to be near impossible. The first lockdown hadn't worked. Yes natural herd immunity may have been an early strategy but that certain was already off the cards by Easter.

It become clear by the first week in September that our capacity to trace and detect cases through testing wasn't sufficient. We couldn't force people to isolate / test if people didn't want to and we didn't have the ability to test all the people who wanted to be anyway.

At this point, the idea of zero covid was gone. People who have clinged to it haven't understood the problem.

It strikes me that the effectiveness of vaccines may have been misunderstood by the public at this juncture and who are now going, well whats the point of having being vaccinated if I still might get ill or even die. Its always been said that the vaccine wouldn't work in every case. The penny is dropping that, this might be a lot of people in practice.

The other thing I don't think a lot of people fully get is the health and socioeconomic issues (and subsequent knock effect to health again) from lockdown. We've almost conditioned ourselves to only see covid.

What I'm seeing now from scientists is a shift from covid being the sole issue, to it being balanced off against other health issues. And the public not understanding this.

Politically we are getting from labour talk of needing to continue restrictions whilst simulataneously refusing to properly acknowledge the link between economic hardship and covid. Throwing a few quid at people to isolate or to furlough them indefinitely, doesn't really help. There is a point where this becomes harmful - people sat at home doing nothing isn't good for them psychically or mentally. Avoiding covid is only sustainable for a finate period regardless of your political pursuasions.

I do think we are at the cross roads point where we have to have difficult conversations over people's expectations, what they thought the aim of restrictions was and the degree to which governments can reasonably stop the tide. Ultimately I think its a little like King Knut sat on the beach, and its only just beginning to dawn on a lot of people that once vaccinations reach a certain level, beyond that intervention by the authorities can only carry on to a certain degree and in the most extreme situations

Where that cut off point is, is the only real debate.

Masks I would have liked to have continued regulated. My suspicion is you would be unwise to bin them all though.

The heavy hints in the press conference were there - they would keep things advisory as much as possible and would strengthen these advisories if needed but they reserved the right to bring in restrictions again if circumstances dictated it. From the mouth of Johnson himself.

But again these restrictions are only going to be able preventing the collaspe of the health service not preventing death.

Mistakes have been made on this by just about every government in the world. We have had some real strengths and weaknesses - like other countries. But ultimately we don't live in isolation. What mistakes were made in China rippled, then Italy, then the UK, then India and so on. Even Australia which has performed really well in the eyes of many is now in a really dangerous situation because of failures.

The public expectation that our government should be infaliable in the face of such unknowns is off the scale bonkers. Yet there are plenty of people who fall into this bracket.

How we got here is one for the public enquiry years done the line. It makes no difference to the situation we are now in.

How much is realistic to protect the clinical vulnerable - without producing even more clincally vulnerable? Thats the issue. Restrictions themselves run the risk of potentially creating more vulnerable. Its not just covid that can do harm.

We have to balance these things. And I think at a time where binary thought processes are amplified and promoted by social media and critical thinking is in crisis and not encouraged as much as it should be, I don't think enough people fully understand whats going on and why / how / what we need to balance.

We are stuck in a land of one dimensional thinking lacking in nuance.

This is the best post I have seen on this topic in the last 18 months.
longwayoff · 07/07/2021 11:06

Sombre? Give it a month and sombre will be the thing. Utter madness. To believe this shower was voted in by the great British public just makes me despair.

Dustyboots · 07/07/2021 11:10

I don't fully understand - RTB - who does?

I understand your post though and it is very clear. I don't expect the government to be infaliable.

There current actions still seems reckless though. Maybe that's just because there is no transparency or honesty. We are never given the true story - are we?

I desperately want to have a government that we can trust.

Dustyboots · 07/07/2021 11:12

Their current actions ...

unwuthering · 07/07/2021 11:12

Even Australia which has performed really well in the eyes of many is now in a really dangerous situation because of failures.

Don't be silly. A three-week lockdown to contain a cluster of cases that are spotfiring in one major city (that could of course be left to grow out of control, but it isn't), vs the dire situation of 28,000 plus cases daily in the UK, which are soon to be fanned into 100,000 a day it has been admitted.

Every country has made mistakes. But who is in 'a dangerous situation', really?

AlecTrevelyan006 · 07/07/2021 11:15

@longwayoff

Sombre? Give it a month and sombre will be the thing. Utter madness. To believe this shower was voted in by the great British public just makes me despair.
Why? Do you think we’re going to see 1,000+ people dying every day as happened in January?
IrmaFayLear · 07/07/2021 11:19

@RedToothBrush makes such thoughtful, sensible posts.

And yet people ignore them! I raise a glass (a little bit early!) to you and thank you for troubling to post. It must be so frustrating when you write so eloquently and then the very next plonker goes on about lockdowns and New Zealand and everyone else ….

Quartz2208 · 07/07/2021 11:21

I agree @RedToothBrush you manage to say everything I think but it a far more compelling and elegant way

HesterShaw1 · 07/07/2021 11:30

[quote IrmaFayLear]@RedToothBrush makes such thoughtful, sensible posts.

And yet people ignore them! I raise a glass (a little bit early!) to you and thank you for troubling to post. It must be so frustrating when you write so eloquently and then the very next plonker goes on about lockdowns and New Zealand and everyone else ….[/quote]
At the risk of sounding like a bit of a fangirl, I completely agree.

Thank you @RedToothBrushtooth

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 07/07/2021 11:39

We are stuck in a land of one dimensional thinking lacking in nuance.

Are you perhaps in danger of assuming one dimensional thinking and lack of nuance from people who reach a different conclusion to you here? You might actually have done the thing you are accusing others of doing.

Health/lives vs economy, covid vs everything else isn’t a zero sum game it never has been. Many of the people advocating a different strategy are aware of that and want something different because other outcomes would be improved as well. Assuming those people have 1D thinking and lack nuance is a rather 1D position itself I would have thought.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 07/07/2021 11:45

Sombre? Give it a month and sombre will be the thing. Utter madness. To believe this shower was voted in by the great British public just makes me despair.

It won't because people are vaccinating.

Even so, what would you have done differently? It's all been tried and every other country comes to the same situation.

Tell you the truth, I'd much rather stay in lockdown, but as a country we have to move on from this. We cannot afford it.

CressidasWizzards · 07/07/2021 11:47

I bet doctors surgeries won't be doing away with masks.
Ha! Will surgeries start opening their doors again though?

traumatisednoodle · 07/07/2021 11:56

RTB have you seriously considered going into politics ? I would vote for you in an instant.

IrmaFayLear · 07/07/2021 12:01

@RedToothBrush - are you well-known or already in a position of authority ? You would be excellent in the public sphere.

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2021 12:10

@Dustyboots

I don't fully understand - RTB - who does?

I understand your post though and it is very clear. I don't expect the government to be infaliable.

There current actions still seems reckless though. Maybe that's just because there is no transparency or honesty. We are never given the true story - are we?

I desperately want to have a government that we can trust.

Reckless?

Possibly.

Or the only option we ever really had?

The problem is we are now in a situation where we have to decide either to make a leap of faith that vaccines work OR we are forced into a situation where we get caught in a cycle where if cases go up we lockdown again, just because of the fear that greater case load puts us at risk of more variants - at which point you ask what was the point of the vaccine programme at all.

The very point here is that the vaccine programme was all about ending the lockdown cycle.

We are nearing the end of this - well our first cycle of vaccinations at least, based on incomplete understanding of our need for boosters and variant specific new vaccines.

The decision has been made that we now have a choice between making the leap of faith in the face of Delta or delaying because of Delta.

Sage has basically said that delaying carries its own risks and if we are going to take the leap of faith - that was planned all along but the public apparently haven't cottoned on it - we are better doing it in the Summer than in the Winter because the Delta Wave is already here and the most we can do is manage it by timing rather than contain it.

I think part of the issue here is we almost have a section of the public who have 'got comfortable' with restrictions whether it be because it protects them (over others who may still be vulnerable but have no choice due to economic reasons) or because they were lulled into a false sense of security that they were 'safe' under restrictions. They have not accepted that this isn't sustainable for health reasons as much as economic reasons (and the two are very much linked).

In terms of trust in government, the erosion of this has been a long term trend. It doesn't start with Boris Johnson and I doubt it will end anytime soon. That hasn't helped matters. But it also doesn't mean that an other government - even one with intrigrity and following due process would have done better in this crisis situation given the starting point we were at.

We were ill prepared and didn't have adequate capacity or infrustrate to act quickly enough back in Jan and Feb last year. On this Germany had better testing infrusture and many places in Asia (and Canada) had better experience with tracing due to their experience of SARS. These are two things we could have done better.

Then we have an older population - something we can't change. And poorer health inequality than much of Europe which is a chronic long term issue over many decades. Indeed the areas with the highest number of deaths correlate extremely closely with the highest levels of Victorian infant mortality.

On top of this we have poorer lifestyle habits which mean we are fatter and more unfit. That partly down to economics and partly down to personal responsibility. Again that spans various political governance.

Then we were in the midst of a political earthwave and change due to Brexit, which further complicated matters and made us have to make decisions in ways we perhaps wouldn't even the previous year. Political instability and uncertainty always adds the background of chaos and confusion any crisis brings

All these things were problems BEFORE we even got to actually making ANY decisions.

As it stands the government were getting scientific advice that there was little risk to the public until far later than they should. Members of the public - aware of foreign governments not necessarily being transparent, trustworthy and infalliable started to stock up on certain things at the end of January. This didn't happen at a governmental level. The lack of action at this point is pretty shocking. But it was January 2020 and there were preoccupations with Brexit which was takiing up significant amounts of time and effort for ministers at the exclusion of numerous other issues (which encompass much more than the possible threat of covid).

It wasn't until mid to late Feb that scientists started to get more nervous and make stronger warnings. Johnson himself delayed further after they actually decided there was a credible threat, but the advice he was getting doesn't seem to be as good as perhaps it should have been. The risk wasn't taken seriously enough.

After that point I'm sure any public inquiry will look at whether deals done were lawful / ethnical or whatever. However there is the possibility that just going 'fuck it get whatever you can from whereever you can' was also the right approach and doing it by the book may have cost lives. The issue that left us in that situation in the first place was a pre existing pre pandemic neglect of strategic planning and purchasing though.

That might actually not fit with the narrative that some want to create of Tory's lining their pockets rather than a desparate scrabble to do the right thing (with profit being more of a side benefit and opportunistic rather than a deliberate concerted strategy).

The way we did the contracts over vaccinations has also been shown to be ruthless but perhaps the right approach given tensions with the EU and competition to get the first supplies.

My suspicion is that any public inquiry will find failings and make recommendations for the future but will also stress that under the circumstances alternatives may not have been as easy as hindsight leads us to believe. I think we will probably find most problems caught up in the pre-pandemic stage rather than in the crisis stage itself. And that once in the crisis we've possibly done better than credit has been given for (tracing being the one major exception to the rule). The speed at which we scaled up testing has to be admired for example. And the centralisation of the NHS has been a major benefit to how we were able to cope.

I'm VERY much in the camp of having no time for Johnson. But I also think the problem is not party specific and that we'd have been screwed regardless of who was in charge.

I'm not sure management of the situation in Scotland and Wales has been considerably better (although I understand they are limited significantly by decisions made in Westminister too).

I remain pretty philosophical about it all to be honest. I am in despair at the sheer uselessness of all the political parties in this country to identify problems and propose viable solutions on just about any issue because they are all too obsessed with political theory and ideology rather than practical management for the benefit of all.

We were already fucked by covid by at least mid 2019 when pandemic planning and procurement which was due to be reviewed wasn't signed off. And thats without talking about our long term inequality issues.

If we really want to be honest about this, Johnson was fighting at uphill battle based on things that were set in place prior to him even becoming PM. The mistakes he made (which always look worse in hindsight but may have been much harder to make in the moment based on limited information) made it worse, but we have to acknowledge this part of things because it meant he was doing more firefighting and this made difficult decisions even harder because he didn't have resources in place in the way they should have been.

In this sense its easy to blame Johnson personally. It doesn't necessarily put blame where it should be though.

shrug

No one wants to be honest about this. You are right. But not necessarily in the way that people who say it, mean it.

Frezia · 07/07/2021 12:11

But the daily vaccination figures are running low. This is at least partly because once again there is discrepancy between policy/messaging and the situation on the ground where many people are scrambling to get their second dose but unable to do so because the NHS is sending cease and desist letters and calls to vaccination centres willing to vax people with less than the 8 week gap. Even if that results in wasted vials, which it does sometimes. Even if it means in many walk-in centres vaccinators don't have much to do much of the time because PHE and NHS tell them they're supposed give out first shots only and/or strictly limit second doses to those with 8-12 gap. And by now most of the over 18s had the chance to get their first dose and it's largely the reluctant remaining. They talk about needing to ratio vaccine supplies but how does that square with the fact many centres are not busy even though they have a supply of vaccine waiting in fridges?

Make it a free for all instead. Surely vaccinating as many people with the first dose made sense as a priority when the risk of hospitalisation and death was much higher than now, but at this time shouldnt the priority be curbing the spread which means letting as many eligible people as possible get their second dose? (By eligible I mean in line with manufacturer recommendations and practice in other countries.) Yes, double jabbed people can still spread it but the chance of it is still significantly smaller than for the unvaxed or those with one dose only.

Can kids over 12 have it or not? If it's been approved and I understand it has, let those willing to have it, have it. Do it now, not muse about possibly September.

In short, the vaccination policy hasn't caught up with plans for the grand opening, and we're spending time instead arguing about the completely needless narrative of "now or never".

traumatisednoodle · 07/07/2021 12:19

The problem is we are now in a situation where we have to decide either to make a leap of faith that vaccines work

This I came to this conclusion for myself about 4 weeks ago (luckily personally double vaxxed with pfzier since March). I would follow the law, but stop doing the other precautionary measures I had taken since last March. We have to trust the vaccines, we have no choice. (Nothing wrong with masks on public transport though).

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2021 12:21

At this point the risk is a new variant more than anything.

But what is the point of vaccines if we don't use them and continue to rely on lockdowns?

The risk of variants will continue indefinitely going forward to some degree.

And this threat goes beyond our own borders and our control.

All of this is a gamble. No one knows what will happen.

Perhaps it will be a disaster. Perhaps we will nail it.

As it stands, I think the logic behind the decision is reasonable though imperfect.

But I also think our alternatives when you start to exact timescales and whats needed to impliment various things are also limited and narrow.

It is very much winging it and hoping for the best, based on the information and resources you have at this exact moment in time.

This is all we have.

There is no 'safe' way to do this in the way that many want to believe. Thats part of the point.

It is all about trying to minimise risk where possible. Not eliminate it. As thats not possible when faced with competiting health risks of so many.

herecomesthsun · 07/07/2021 12:39

*But what is the point of vaccines if we don't use them and continue to rely on lockdowns?"

Hmm well the kids aren't vaccinated, not even the clinically vulnerable ones in secondary schools.

And we are planning to take away the isolation measures for them without, at the moment, definitely planning protective measures for them.

It is a bit concerning if you are the parent of a child with medical conditions.

tiltedtomatoes · 07/07/2021 12:40

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

We are stuck in a land of one dimensional thinking lacking in nuance.

Are you perhaps in danger of assuming one dimensional thinking and lack of nuance from people who reach a different conclusion to you here? You might actually have done the thing you are accusing others of doing.

Health/lives vs economy, covid vs everything else isn’t a zero sum game it never has been. Many of the people advocating a different strategy are aware of that and want something different because other outcomes would be improved as well. Assuming those people have 1D thinking and lack nuance is a rather 1D position itself I would have thought.

This!

RTB says some very sensible things but also some posts overemphasise the idea that there's this mass of people who unlike her aren't accepting reality. It's not that simple. It is perfectly possible to accept the grim reality of covid in relation to society (including the inevitably of exposure for all of us and the certainty that people will die) but still disagree about how things are managed at any one point in time.

Lockdownbear · 07/07/2021 12:45

I'm not sure management of the situation in Scotland and Wales has been considerably better (although I understand they are limited significantly by decisions made in Westminister too).

Scotland is currently the Covid capital of Europe. I think that tells its own story. The SG are saying they are victims of their own success.

Having had some of the harshest lockdowns and most severe restrictions than anywhere else. Last summer they pursued Zero Covid, 2m distancing is law, no relaxation to 1m for masks.

But people have given up. I honestly don't think people will listen if they get told not to visit friends again.

Lockdowns were only to flatten the curve. You can't squash it completely. Which is what they tried to do. And now look where we are at.

Redtoothbrush you really do talk so much sense.

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