Did it seem a bit odd that the tone of today's announcement was so sombre?

[secretintrovert]

Bojo should have been doing his victory dance for freedom day! Instead the three of them looked as miserable as sin. There's trouble afoot methinks. This will be very very temporary

bad form? bad form to look at realistic outcomes for removing restrictions in a pandemic.?!

what utter utter rubbish

It is stupidity not to pay heed to very reasonable predictions. Just because you don't like them doesn't make it "bad form."

Are we 10 and at boarding school or something? Would you rather talk about my little pony?

@herecomesthsun

bad form? bad form to look at realistic outcomes for removing restrictions in a pandemic.?!

what utter utter rubbish

It is stupidity not to pay heed to very reasonable predictions. Just because you don't like them doesn't make it "bad form."

Are we 10 and at boarding school or something? Would you rather talk about my little pony?

No I’d rather talk about the right metric which is hospitalisation

If you can’t see that comms have impact on how people feel, and intentionally so you’ve missed a key tool through the whole pandemic.

But sarky reply always very adult

Hospitalisation is still happening though, even though it is at a lower rate.

If we do have 200k cases a day we will get significant numbers in hospital, even if they are proportionately less than in December. We will also get deaths (thankfully less than in December, but unnecessary ones)

it is childish to say that discussing this is bad form. That is what is childish.

@herecomesthsun

Hospitalisation is still happening though, even though it is at a lower rate.

If we do have 200k cases a day we will get significant numbers in hospital, even if they are proportionately less than in December. We will also get deaths (thankfully less than in December, but unnecessary ones)

it is childish to say that discussing this is bad form. That is what is childish.

Of course hospitalisation and deaths with still happen. No one has ever said they they won’t.

@herecomesthsun

Hospitalisation is still happening though, even though it is at a lower rate.

If we do have 200k cases a day we will get significant numbers in hospital, even if they are proportionately less than in December. We will also get deaths (thankfully less than in December, but unnecessary ones)

it is childish to say that discussing this is bad form. That is what is childish.

No you can discuss it

I’m more interested in why media put out messages they do.

And sometimes it’s not measured enough imo

It depends on your mindset.

Some people prefer to cut through the crap and see things presented as they are in a stark fashion because they process it better, and can understand why decisions are being made in a clinical way (as in effectively triaging the population to a certain extent - treating the most vulnerable first to give them the best chance but also being conscious of limited resources and how this impacts on the decisions actually available to you in practice).

With vaccines never being 100% effective and zero covid a policy which rapidly became unviable within just a few weeks of the pandemic taking hold global the idea that we could ever fully protect everyone is pie in the sky.

All we can do is give people the best chance possible before circumstances caused by restrictions themselves start to cause problems and impact on health.

Whitty and Valance were always very upfront about this from the word go, if you were paying attention.

Idealists may have deliberately ignored this or not realised the significant of them talking about non-direct deaths and harms from covid, but its something thats always been part of the equation.

Fundamentally the thing missing from this idealism and preciously why we need a debate about this now is that reality necessitates things are balanced rather than places 100% focus on covid alone.

Too many people are doing this and too many people have unrealistic expectations of what restrictions and vaccines could ever do.

This message needs to now be conveyed and strong. I'm not going to sugar coat things to make people feel fuzzy about it.

It is what it is.

Our alternatives are extremely limited if they exist at all in viable terms.

I don’t need sugar coating at all.

The opposite really.

I just can’t do the emotive reaction to some headlines or numbers anymore.

Cases may be very high but the one to look at is capacity and this seems to be ok if you listen to Whitty.

Marsha, I can't stand the emotive stuff either.

Plus I find it easier to break down and understand when you make it really blunt and dry.

Its not a question of 'throwing anyone under a bus'. Its about try to balance everyone's needs as well as possible.

Trouble is we have some pretty blunt tools to do that - and tbh I think whatever option you take it hurts the most vulnerable most anyway.

Its more a question of 'pick your own poison' rather than anything else in a lot of cases unfortunately.

It was an appropriate tone for the announcement
They can't come over too gleeful because people have died, are dying and will still die from Covid.

It's all about a balance of harms and the judgement now is that the harms of lockdown outweigh the harms of Covid now that we have sufficient of the population vaccinated.

I do happen to agree with that now for the first time ever. I agreed with the lockdowns. I knew first hand from within NHS outbreaks that we had to do that. At that time I was arguing for earlier and harder measures because it was frightening how many beds were filled with Covid patients and wards closing for outbreaks and lack of staff especially last Christmas time/ Jan.

But now the situation is different

People are still dying and will still die from Covid but now or soon the numbers will be far outweighed by those dying of preventable illness, suicide, alcoholism etc and suffering from increased rates of loneliness, social isolation, domestic violence, child abuse, untreated chronic illness and pain etc etc

From my NHS mental health ward and community service I can tell you there is a tsunami of mental illness breaking over us right now. Huge amounts of anxiety, depression and even psychosis. People with severe chronic illness who were managing relapsing because all their support systems collapsed, new presentations because of the huge stress everyone is under and delayed presentations with more severe illness because of a lack of primary care and community services.

There isn't even really a dichotomy here. The people most vulnerable to Covid are also the ones suffering the most from lockdown. The poor, the disabled, vulnerable people, minorities.

It is time to live with it now because we can't go on like this and that's not just about masks or foreign holidays or festivals it's about all the harms that ongoing restrictions are bringing to the economy, healthcare, education, social care and just about everything you can think of.

I want people to be able to visit their loved ones in hospitals and care homes again unrestricted
I want to be able to communicate with my patients face to face without a mask and hold a hand if they need it
I want people to be able to access their GP and for day centres and clubs that are a lifeline for many to open up again.
I want to be able to do the job I trained for and not have everything be about Covid all the bloody time.

BOJO: "Some of you will die, but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. "

He's back into herd immunity again. They're counting on most of you being "bored of this now" (as opposed to bored with...), because apparently, being "Bored of it all now" makes covid disappear. The same people don't give a shit that the govt are completely useless, and have been every step of the way.

"They'll still vote for us, because we told them the other lot were shit...."

Masking and distancing should be retained.

Oh, and the policing bill was passed yesterday. No amendments.

www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-mps-should-vote-down-dystopian-policing-bill

Of course he’s back into ‘herd immunity’... that is, essentially, the only way out of this, whether that’s by vaccination, infection or both.

And we don’t them to tell us ‘the other lot are shit’, we can see that for ourselves. And that’s from someone who has never voted Tory and never will!

From my NHS mental health ward and community service I can tell you there is a tsunami of mental illness breaking over us right now. Huge amounts of anxiety, depression and even psychosis. People with severe chronic illness who were managing relapsing because all their support systems collapsed, new presentations because of the huge stress everyone is under and delayed presentations with more severe illness because of a lack of primary care and community services.

This needs to be shouted from the roof-tops along with the suicide rates. People seem to think MH is just about feeling a wee bit sad or fed-up.

People are truly suffering. Support networks destroyed. Clubs and groups for lonely elderly people not running. People left to manage bereavement alone or with one child being able to visit but not another.

@GreenWillow

The whole idea was to prevent the nhs collapsing, not ‘saving lives’, whatever we might have been told to the contrary.

The nhs is looking like it will be able to cope, but yes, there will be more deaths.

Covid is here to stay, we will just have to get used to the elderly and vulnerable dying earlier than they would have in the pre covid era.

This is why the message was sombre - out of respect to those who will lose their lives to Covid. It’s a truly awful situation, but there isn’t really any alternative.

Very eloquent, I agree.

BOJO: "Some of you will die, but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. "

At what point of a new novel virus spreading around the globe did you think that people would not die?

I agree that one should be sombre when condemning thousands to their deaths.

But of course there are alternatives.

Most other countries' leaders don't keep standing up on tv and telling their own people that lots of them are going to die.

And acting like there's nothing to be done about it.

We know there's plenty to be done because other countries are doing it.

So basically herd immunity and survival of the fittest? The government has supplied some vaccines and now its your responsibility as to what happens as we (your world beating government) are too incompetent and corrupt to contain let alone eradicate deliberately imported fresh variants. We have used this once in a lifetime pandemic to gaslight, not followed our own rules ensured we have enriched ourselves and our mates so thank you for your continued support and appreciation at the ballot box. Do continue to vote for the Brexit, vaccination and freedom party, love and stay safe, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson but do call me by my middle celeb showbiz name Boris.

@PrincessNutNuts and @ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia - yes, this is what happens when a minority of the population is able to elect a showboating journalist bullshitter and his swivel-eyed Friedmanite loon string-pullers to power, it's a living nightmare.

@Lockdownbear

From my NHS mental health ward and community service I can tell you there is a tsunami of mental illness breaking over us right now. Huge amounts of anxiety, depression and even psychosis. People with severe chronic illness who were managing relapsing because all their support systems collapsed, new presentations because of the huge stress everyone is under and delayed presentations with more severe illness because of a lack of primary care and community services.

This needs to be shouted from the roof-tops along with the suicide rates. People seem to think MH is just about feeling a wee bit sad or fed-up.

People are truly suffering. Support networks destroyed. Clubs and groups for lonely elderly people not running. People left to manage bereavement alone or with one child being able to visit but not another.

And do you guys think that mismanaging the pandemic at this point will really make the mental health of the country any better?

Pretend it's not happening and it will go away. I wish that worked, then we could make this government disappear.

I think the mood was sombre because the CMO was in polite but extensive disagreement with the PM & they were being polite to each other & avoiding each other's territory.

@Ifitquacks

And we don’t them to tell us ‘the other lot are shit’, we can see that for ourselves. And that’s from someone who has never voted Tory and never will!

"The other lot" could be anyone. Johnson and the Tories know that no matter what they do, people will continue to vote for them. We never have, but too many people are hoodwinked into doing so.

@hamstersarse . The point is that people don't have to die. At least, not so many of them. Continuing to mask and SD would help enormously, but so far, it's all, "We can't cope, so we're making you lot responsible. When it all goes tits up, it will be your fault."

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia. "So basically herd immunity and survival of the fittest? The government has supplied some vaccines and now its your responsibility as to what happens as we (your world beating government) are too incompetent and corrupt to contain let alone eradicate deliberately imported fresh variants. We have used this once in a lifetime pandemic to gaslight, not followed our own rules ensured we have enriched ourselves and our mates so thank you for your continued support and appreciation at the ballot box. Do continue to vote for the Brexit, vaccination and freedom party, love and stay safe, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson but do call me by my middle celeb showbiz name Boris."

That. Precisely that.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

So basically herd immunity and survival of the fittest? The government has supplied some vaccines and now its your responsibility as to what happens as we (your world beating government) are too incompetent and corrupt to contain let alone eradicate deliberately imported fresh variants. We have used this once in a lifetime pandemic to gaslight, not followed our own rules ensured we have enriched ourselves and our mates so thank you for your continued support and appreciation at the ballot box. Do continue to vote for the Brexit, vaccination and freedom party, love and stay safe, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson but do call me by my middle celeb showbiz name Boris.

I can't remember who it is (maybe ONS) who have looked at what % of the population of England now have covid-19 antibodies. Its over 90% from a combination of vaccination and infection.

With that in mind, don't you think that going on about how awful it is to go for herd immunity at this point, is well... a bit 'misguided' and 'ill informed'?

By the time we get to the 19th we will be at around 67% of adults double vaccinated which is a whisker short of the level at which we officially achieve the minimum level for herd immunity (thats 70%).

If we are already at herd immunity, largely thanks to vaccines, how is this policy then problematic?

We know that even with a comprehensive vaccine programme, no vaccine is 100% effective. We will get deaths regardless. Because thats nature not politics.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is ultimately in this context other than you don't like Johnson much.

Well neither do I, but ad hominem attacks on the man in a way which is incoherent and doesn't actually understand what the hell you are talking about is quite frankly.... just bizarre and slightly cringeworthy.

At least have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

I am no fan of this Tory government and it would be a cold day in hell before I voted for Boris but honestly I don't know what he really could do at this point.

Yeh he could have left compulsory masks inside. I wouldn't care at all if he did that but it's honestly not going to have a huge impact. Remember when they said at the start it didn't make much difference. That is in fact still true. It makes a tiny difference if everyone does it and that seemed worth it at the time but it's got nothing on fresh air.
I think masks are to a large degree virtue signalling really although I comply and I will likely still do.

Social distancing he can't leave in place because the capacity limitations are screwing with the economy and indeed non Covid NHS and other essential stuff

What are these amazing things that other countries are doing??
Vaccine- done
Lockdown- risks outweigh benefits
Stuff short of that- mostly pissing in the wind, fig leaf of caution with no real impact.

And yes it will in a very tangible way help people's mental health if they can meet family and friends, have a hug, go to groups and activities, even just have casual social contacts on a bus or in a shop without fear. Many of my clients are so lonely that some casual contacts on the bus and the man at the corner shop are actually huge part of their social network. Many of them saw a sum total of no-one face to face for months on end and no wonder really that some turned to drink and drugs or got so depressed they didn't get out of bed for days on end. It has to stop.

What are these amazing things that other countries are doing??

Mounting a competent covid response.