Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

*testing
*can work from home

Should be pointed out a lot of employers aren’t paying for isolation if you can’t work - this will have a huge affect on some families.

@BluebellsGreenbells that comment was made in the context of unvaccinated people potentially putting strain on the NHS.

bumbleymummy

I’m just pointing out that it isn’t all about hospitals there are other impacts.

Yes the unvaccinated might or might not need medical support - but it isn’t just about that is it?

They will still need to isolate and so will their families. They could have to do this many times especially if they have children in large schools. They will be less reliable as employees.

There’s a bigger impact on social events and I’ve read today about people being shunned because they refuse to be vaccinated.

Totally their choice, but it’s more than just one outcome

I’ve read today about people being shunned because they refuse to be vaccinated.

I don’t think the solution here is for people to have to be vaccinated in order to be accepted. The people doing the shunning are the ones in the wrong.

Anyone who tests positive needs to isolate - vaccinated or not.

@BluebellsGreenbells

And most of the unvaccinated people are young and not cv so unlikely to end up in hospital

Friends son just caught covid - 10 day isolation and tearing for the entire family. Parents coupon home - daughter missed vital exams.

It’s not all about the individual.

Well, then maybe all these people should direct their anger at the government that is responsible for these absurd, pointless and completely unprecedented policies, and refuse to comply with them.

"Lockdown" (a prison practice), forced house arrest ("self-isolation") of the healthy ("asymptomatic"), etc. - all of these are POLITICAL choices, not the inevitable corollary of a virus. Nor are they the fault or responsibility of the public, vaccinated or not.

The way people have been manipulated to see all of these radical and unprecedented socio-political changes as some kind of inexorable destiny, and simultaneously the result of human agency, is so transparent. The scapegoat - the "unvaccinated" - has already been prepped for when the government carries out its next planned "lockdown" in the autumn. It's all so obvious and predictable.

"Because so many have had it, it’s entirely plausible that you will benefit from the risk taken by others and you will never had to take the individual risk. "

"It is because unlike other health choices it has an impact on other people. Why would you not do something which would considerably lessen the risk of passing covid on to someone else who might be more vulnerable than you?"

The above 2 comments summarise how I feel about those who have chosen not to be vaccinated (these feelings do not apply to the very small minority who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons).

Not being vaccinated is the choice you've made. Losing respect for those who choose not to be vaccinated is my choice to make. It's not bullying, it's just stating how I feel and answering the question you asked.

"the ability to end a vast majority of legal restrictions in England was thanks to the success of the vaccine rollout in weakening the link between cases and deaths." - from today's announcement. Which those choosing not to be vaccinated also benefit from even though they haven't contributed to it. Not hard to work out why you there's such a backlash towards people who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

Have the vaccine or not. It really doesn't bother me.
What'I hate is people in my personal life giving me grief for having the vaccine. I will be dead within 2 or 3 at best apparently.
Said persons were speading anti vax stuff in an attrmpt to persuade others not to have it. Absolutely appalling.

the ability to end a vast majority of legal restrictions in England was thanks to the success of the vaccine rollout in weakening the link between cases and deaths." - from today's announcement. Which those choosing not to be vaccinated also benefit from even though they haven't contributed to it.

The majority of the deaths were in the most vulnerable groups that were prioritised for vaccination. The vaccine reduces the severity of illness in those who were most likely to be hospitalised/die. That is how the link between cases and deaths has been broken. We haven’t ‘benefitted’ from vulnerable people being vaccinated - we no longer have to restrict our lives to protect them/the nhs because they can have the vaccine to protect them instead. They are the ones ‘benefitting’ from the vaccine because it protects them from serious illness. The rest of us are just going back to our default way of life.

Lockdown" (a prison practice), forced house arrest ("self-isolation") of the healthy ("asymptomatic"), etc. - all of these are POLITICAL choices, not the inevitable corollary of a virus. Nor are they the fault or responsibility of the public, vaccinated or not. The way people have been manipulated to see all of these radical and unprecedented socio-political changes as some kind of inexorable destiny, and simultaneously the result of human agency, is so transparent. The scapegoat - the "unvaccinated" - has already been prepped for when the government carries out its next planned "lockdown" in the autumn. It's all so obvious and predictable

I agree @McSilkson. Very insightful post.

@bumbleymummy

the ability to end a vast majority of legal restrictions in England was thanks to the success of the vaccine rollout in weakening the link between cases and deaths." - from today's announcement. Which those choosing not to be vaccinated also benefit from even though they haven't contributed to it.

The majority of the deaths were in the most vulnerable groups that were prioritised for vaccination. The vaccine reduces the severity of illness in those who were most likely to be hospitalised/die. That is how the link between cases and deaths has been broken. We haven’t ‘benefitted’ from vulnerable people being vaccinated - we no longer have to restrict our lives to protect them/the nhs because they can have the vaccine to protect them instead. They are the ones ‘benefitting’ from the vaccine because it protects them from serious illness. The rest of us are just going back to our default way of life.

What's worse is that the majority of deaths were in care homes and among people who caught Covid in hospital. It is absolutely shocking that untested people were returned from hospitals to care homes at the outset, seeding the infection back in the care homes amongst the most vulnerable. And don't get me started on the DNR notices which weren't even being discussed with the patient or their family. The unvaccinated weren't responsible for any of that!

@Marchitectmummy

Because the more who are not vaccinated the more it will continue to mutate and the more likely the disease will continue to thrive and eventually undermine the vaccine. If that were not a risk I wouldn't care one bit but I want to see the disease end not mutate.

Utter nonsense. Viruses mutate all the time (becoming less lethal and more contagious as they do). Vaccination makes no odds at all to the process of mutation.

@Silvercatowner

I mean, getting a covid vaccine doesn't make you morally superior to those who don't. Except in your own head

It really really does.

Jesus! The level of delusion here.

@Shoxfordian

It’s because your choice means you’re spreading the virus, infecting people, slowing the recovery of the economy and stopping the removal of restrictions; all of which could directly affect me

Except that it isn't automatic that anyone gets Covid and if they do both the vaccinated & the unvaccinated can spread the virus!

@ReallyReady111

A couple of questions on this one. Loads of people have said that they know people who need to be protected because medically they can’t have the jab. What conditions exactly do these people have? I’ve looked into this extensively and the only condition that exempts you from the Mrna Covid vaccines is immediate anaphylaxis to that specific jab (which in order to discover you would have to already have had one of the jabs.) And in that instance they recommend you have one of the other jabs. There ARE no medical exemptions for this. All those discussing restrictions based on vac status but favour exemptions for those who medically ‘can’t have the jab’ need to be aware that at the moment that’s nobody. And also that historically (California is a great example of this) doctors have been discriminated against and even lost their medical license for giving out ‘too many’ exemptions.

Vaccines are safe and effective for the best majority of people. But public health measures by their very nature are a blunt instrument prioritising the greatest good of the greatest number over individual cases. If we stoop to othering those who are unvaccinated, and introduce measures (either via the govt or by the backdoor, with companies mandating their own vaccine based restrictions) where does that leave people with complex medical histories whose cases aren’t cut and dry, and for whom there isn’t and probably will never be any data from clinical trials - which is the only gold standard for evaluating risk.

The phase three stage of drug trials is where the information is gathered which leads to some conditions being added to the exemption risk - if for example pregnant or breastfeeding women or those with specific autoimmune disorders are seen population wide to be more at risk of adverse events, those conditions are added to the list of approved exemptions. For now that list is vanishingly small.

It must be left up to individuals (and their doctors if they require them) to assess risk benefit on an individual basis. To call others selfish because they refuse a vaccine is myopic.

Well there are two issues:

(1) There are 1m adverse reaction reports on the MHRA site and about 1300 deaths attricuted to the vaccine). And that's ignoring medium-long-term side effects which no-one knows anythung abut because the trails have not finished yet.

(2) There are reasons aside from anaphylaxis not to have a vaccine. I have a very rare auto-immune condition and some of the vaccines are known to trigger auto-immune conditions/events (notably the mRNA vaccines not one of which has made it to market with a full authorisation in over 20 years). When I was first diagnosed, the three consultants dealing with me all concluded that the auto-immune condition had probably been triggered by a vaccine. My auto-immune condition triggered a brain haemorrhage - vascular problems are a feature of all of the current crop of vaccines.

@Gladiolys

Most people have done it for themselves and not for the communities, let's face it.

It doesn’t matter one jot what people’s motivations were; it’s remains a fact that if you’re vaccinated, you’re contributing to herd immunity and thus your actions have the effect of protecting vulnerable people, whereas if you could be vaccinated and choose not to, you are compromising that and therefore putting people at risk. Doesn’t matter whether you’re vaccinated for selfish reasons or altruistic reasons. The consequence is the same. And the consequence of choosing not to get vaccinated is that you’re putting vulnerable people at risk.

It’s ok for me to judge you for that. It’s a selfish action. That’s a reasonable reason to be judgmental.

If you think that the unvaccinated are putting vulnerable people, who have presumably been vaccinated, a risk then you obviously don't believe the vaccines wok. In which case why bother? You should also be aware that people who are unavaccinatd but who have already had Covid also contribute to herd immunity.

@motogogo

Two words Herd immunity

No vaccination is 100%, therefore we rely on a critical mass of the population to have any given vaccine to suppress diseases getting into general circulation. Not everyone can be vaccinated, for some despite vaccination they do not produce antibodies, then in the case of covid, children aren't vaccinated - we kind of need everyone else otherwise rolling lockdowns will be our new normal.

Each disease has a different percentage at which herd immunity is reached. It's a public health issue basically - my rights are going to be infringed because others won't have the jab, whose rights are more important???

Wrong - herd immunity is not solely delivered by vaccination. Anyone who has already had Covid but is unvaccintd is still contributing to herd immunity.

As for rights, the UK is a signatory to the UN Human Rights & Bio-Ethics covention which is also enshrined in UK law - no-one can be coerced into taking any medical intervention (which includes a vaccination), their consent is required. The convntion has its origins in the Nuremburg trials of the doctors who committed atrocities against the inmates of Nazi death camps. Hencd the importance of consent and why it is regarded as an important human right. It is disturbing to me that we now have proto-fascists demanding that others accept experiemntal vaccines to appease their hysteria. If you have taken the vaccine then you are protected from serious illness - unless, of course, you don't believe the vaccine works in which case why bother? It is entirely unreasonable to demand that someone else takes a vaccine which may cause them harm in order to protect you when you have the option to protect yourself.

@ForeverSausages

Read through the whole thread and surprised no one has mentioned natural immunity. Obviously, the usual; I'm not having lunch with the unvaccinated and if someone gets Covid it'll obviously be from the unvaccinated. Thankfully my friends (vaccinated) realise they could be asymptomatic and give me (unvaccinated) Covid.

My question re immunity; I've had Covid recently. Is it selfish and stupid of me to now not have the vaccination even though I likely already have natural immunity?

Actually it won't onbviously be the case that someone who gets Covid will have caught it from someone who is unvaccinated - the vaccinated can still transmit Covid.

I agree with you about herd immunity. The asssumption by many seems to be that this can only be achieved through vaccination but naturally-acquired immunity following infection is just as relevant and i have seen eports that it is longer-lasting. I have also seen papers which suggest that those who have developed antibodies after getting Covid should not get vaccinated. You might want to do some googling but obviously stick to established medical/scientific sites.

@MarianGW I’m sorry if my post was unclear. I 100% agree with you. There are many reasons for medically complex individuals NOT to get vaccines. The extremely worrying thing about the current guidelines are that none of these reasons are given as official reasons for exemptions. I also developed multiple autoimmune disorders right after a set of travel vacs. I have secondary infertility and have suffered multiple miscarriages due to a chronically over active immune system. I’m also breastfeeding and will have to go on high dose steroids to be able to conceive. But if I had to get an official exemption I wouldn’t be able to, because apparently immediate anaphylaxis is the only “reasonable” exemption. It’s a scary time for those of us who are medically complex. Especially as but by bit the unvaccinated will be made scapegoats for any failure in the grand re opening.

"Is the NHS on the verge of collapse" the newsreader on an episode of 1970s comedy series Man About the House which was on ITV3 last week

Are ppl really going to keep going for repeat jabs if nothing seems to change?
Uptake for the second dose is lower than the first. Over 43 million people have had a first dose of the vaccine. (over 81% of the adult population) and over 31 million have had a second. Broken promises and double standards tend to piss people off. I dont think uptake of the autumn booster will be high if they try another Christmas lockdown.

Speaking of double standards and hypocrisy.............heres another one....metro.co.uk/2021/05/20/dr-hilary-defends-summer-cruise-as-he-slams-non-essential-holidays-14613382/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.twitter

metro.co.uk/2021/05/20/dr-hilary-defends-summer-cruise-as-he-slams-non-essential-holidays-14613382/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.twitter

@MarianGW Totally agree with you.

@ReallyReady111

What's worse is that the majority of deaths were in care homes and among people who caught Covid in hospital. It is absolutely shocking that untested people were returned from hospitals to care homes at the outset, seeding the infection back in the care homes amongst the most vulnerable. And don't get me started on the DNR notices which weren't even being discussed with the patient or their family. The unvaccinated weren't responsible for any of that

Yep

It's like brexit all over again. Except now the leavers are the unvaccinated. You're going to get shit because those choices affect everyone. We want our lives back. Not sure what you're wanting outside of the zillion other 'im not getting the vaccine', stop being mean' threads

Exactly this - think about other people, have you declined any other vaccinations offered to you or your DC?

I don't understand why you wouldn't have it, tbh