Anti-lockdowners pretending to care about kids again

[noblegiraffe]

So it's all over the news about how nearly 400,000 kids are having to isolate because of covid cases in schools. Complaints about how disruptive to education it is and to the mental health of the children involved. This disruptive isolation must end as soon as possible.

Contrast to last November when nearly a million kids were self-isolating in a week. Do you remember the headlines, discussions and outrage about that?

No, of course you don't. Because back then, the solution to so many kids isolating was to put more mitigation measures in schools and attempt to stop so many kids catching it.

Now they can argue that it doesn't matter if all kids catch it, they're all over the 'terrible' isolation figures which are less than half of those last year.

I'm SO done with people only caring about kids and education when they think that they can use them for their own benefit.

If these loud voices could be used to talk about things like the cuts to pupil premium, the pitiful covid catch-up funding, the critical shortage of teachers, the unsafe state of schools, the massive waiting lists for CAMHS and SEN services, then maybe I'd believe them when they claim to care about children.

@Chillychangchoo

1. no I don't feel very safe post vaccine as I'm CEV and the advice is to continue caution. The vaccines also do not confer 100% immunity (though they are very good) and do not last indefinitely hence the need for boosters.

1. if you are working in a MH ward or something, I hope there are some safeguards, such as checks on vaccinations for service users. There's a real issue for services.

1. I think parental advice and information is pretty important, possibly more important than that from the school where behaviours like mask wearing are concerned. Peer behaviour is also a big factor, so if a kid's mates don't think mask-wearing is cool (apparently cool is still the right word) then I would imagine they won't wear masks.

If you think as a parent that mask wearing is pointless, I'd be quite surprised to hear that your child wanted to wear a mask, though I suppose they might out of perversity

@ChloeDecker

Why sigh? It was you who said you wanted a debate with evidence, after all.

Thank you for the first article from Northern Ireland back in Feb, which does concede that schools do drive transmission, albeit not on a major scale but I wonder what they would make of the Delta variant.

The second article is quite hard to find a date on and the only one Incan see is from October 2020. It also states in that non peer reviewed article:

Whether children are also less often infected by SARS-CoV-2 is an ongoing debate. Large epidemio- logical studies suggest that children comprise only 1 to 2% of all SARS-CoV-2 cases.6–8 However, these numbers heavily depend on testing criteria and, in many reports, testing was done only in individ- uals who were symptomatic or required hospital- isation, which is less often the case for children. Some studies suggest that children are just as likely as adults to become infected with SARS-CoV-2.

However, this study on the Delta Variant (date. June 2021 from Imperial) says that Youth test positivity rate five times higher than seniors and considers the affect the Delta variant is having symptoms on young people
spiral.imperial.ac.uk/handle/10044/1/89629 but in the interests of transparency, it is a current working paper on the REACT study, which is also a very good read on current cases in schools.

I’m afraid I cannot load your last link as I just get this error message when I click on it.

The sigh is because I want to engage (and feel responsibility to do so) but a a question of resources and time. As I said, I didn’t start this thread, and therefore I don’t think that the burden of proof should lie with me. I was simply calling for OP to start a meaningful discussion if she was going to start a thread, instead of an inflammatory attack on the intentions of people she disagrees with.

I am a single parent and it’s the weekend. I am not accountable to you, and I don’t have the time to research links and send them to you. Out of good faith I sent a flavour of what I could find with an immediate quick google. Although I have been reading and researching these issues since the beginning of the pandemic, I did not keep a log of all the resources/ links so I could argue with people on mumsnet. I wish I had done. Next pandemic I will know better.

The three statements I’ve made are mainstream and have had plenty of articles/ studies written on them, you can find them yourself. I never said there was no transmission in schools , transmission is everywhere. I said that transmission in schools wasn’t a major driver in the spread of the disease more broadly. This has been evidenced from studies / data all over the world, and if you look for it you will find it.

On the second point- come on? Are you seriously saying you believe covid is seriously dangerous to children? Find a credible pediatrician in the world who agrees with you. The data everywhere shows that it is exceptionally rare for a child to get seriously ill or die of covid. Everyone knows this.

On your latest point about Delta @ChloeDecker this is new and the jury is still out. The data is changing all the time. However, I found this thread particularly helpful in unpacking some of the fear mongering.

twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1408445575268294663?s=21

@Bizawit OK, here is an article from CNN in which US paediatricians explain that covid is risky enough to kids that vaccination is better than just leaving them to catch covid.

They quote pediatric cardiologists Dr. Kevin Hall at the Yale School of Medicine and Dr. Stuart Berger at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, who is also chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics section on cardiology and cardiac surgery

edition.cnn.com/2021/06/13/health/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-questions-answers/index.html

@Bizawit

that was in response to your comments below.

Are you seriously saying you believe covid is seriously dangerous to children?

Find a credible pediatrician in the world who agrees with you.

The data everywhere shows that it is exceptionally rare for a child to get seriously ill or die of covid.

Everyone knows this.

On your latest point about Delta @ChloeDecker this is new and the jury is still out. The data is changing all the time.

Yes, I completely agree. Which is why I like to read more recent studies and peer reviewed articles and not ones from last year. Thank you. I will have a read of your last link.

In regard to 'covid very rarely being harmful to children'...

That's actually not quite what the emerging picture of long covid is showing, nor is this level of complacency particularly comfortable to people who know about viruses and how they mutate.

And on the clinically vulnerable child issue - having a child with asthma is a concern and indeed has moments of being terrifying. But the clinical picture that we have at the moment, indicates that children with asthma aren't at risk of more harm than children without from covid.

There are however, other clinical vulnerabilities that make children with them considerably more at risk of covid, single cell disease being one of them.

@beyondstresssedandmore

Do you have any links to current thinking on vulnerability in children?

I can see that that link is on Alasdair Munro’s twitter feed who famously attacked the doctor heading up the British Medical Association last year and has spoken at conferences with Us4them links but he is a paediatrician and I am not. I do understand that. However, even he, on his own thread says this about the Delta variant It is more transmissible by everyone (including children) and may cause more severe disease

Actually, we've been talking about this since very early on in the pandemic. There has been an extremely active group called Us For Them involved in lobbying and protesting for children for over a year. You just haven't seen it on the news.

@herecomesthsun

Some of our service users are unvaccinated because that’s their choice. We still need to provide care, without masks. They do need to see our facial expressions. I’m ok with this being relatively young and non CEV. (I’m also double jabbed) If I was CEV I would absolutely find another job. The ward wouldn’t be the place for me. Perhaps you might want to find another job now? Other than expecting the whole world to revolve around your current clinical needs maybe now is the time to find something more suitable like a wfh position?

[quote herecomesthsun]@Bizawit OK, here is an article from CNN in which US paediatricians explain that covid is risky enough to kids that vaccination is better than just leaving them to catch covid.

They quote pediatric cardiologists Dr. Kevin Hall at the Yale School of Medicine and Dr. Stuart Berger at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, who is also chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics section on cardiology and cardiac surgery

edition.cnn.com/2021/06/13/health/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-questions-answers/index.html[/quote]
I didn’t start a debate on whether children should be vaccinated. Yes, covid can and has cause(d) severe illness and death in children, but it is exceptionally rare and much rarer than lots of other common causes of illness/ death in children that didn’t previously have us calling for these types of measures in schools. I really don’t think this is credibly in dispute.
(Where covid does cause issues this tends to be older teenagers or “young people” as noted in this article).

@ChloeDecker

I can see that that link is on Alasdair Munro’s twitter feed who famously attacked the doctor heading up the British Medical Association last year and has spoken at conferences with Us4them links but he is a paediatrician and I am not. I do understand that. However, even he, on his own thread says this about the Delta variant It is more transmissible by everyone (including children) and may cause more severe disease

Anyone who has taken a view that challenges the mainstream position on covid policy has had their personal credibility and character dragged through the mud. I don’t know this Dr personally but I’ve followed him on Twitter for a while, and seems like a very reasonable / balanced person and a nice guy. And he very sincerely cares about children. His main call from the beginning of this pandemic is that we should put children’s best interests first.

Bizawit

Which is fair enough. I too have children’s beet interests first. I find it interesting on that twitter feed you posted that Alasdair says that there has been ‘no catastrophe’ since returning in March. So everything is fine then. All those parents upset and struggling with their children self isolating yet again and schools having to close doesn’t matter because all is just fine-no catastrophe to see here…

herecomesthesun

www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/covid-19-guidance-clinically-extremely-vulnerable-children-young-people#group-a

Children with asthma and other conditions managed by a GP not considered ECV or CV. Other conditions are.

The concerns amongst scientists are the emerging evidence of long covid in children and letting the virus spread increasing the risks of mutations.

@ChloeDecker

Bizawit

Which is fair enough. I too have children’s beet interests first. I find it interesting on that twitter feed you posted that Alasdair says that there has been ‘no catastrophe’ since returning in March. So everything is fine then. All those parents upset and struggling with their children self isolating yet again and schools having to close doesn’t matter because all is just fine-no catastrophe to see here…

I think he meant no catastrophe in terms of the disease and it’s spread. He’s consistently highlighted the negative impact on children caused by containment measures/ restrictions , especially those related to schools…

I don’t doubt your intentions by the way, we may just disagree in terms of what is best for children right now..

@beyondstresssedandmore

That article states that on the whole there is a very, very small amount of children that are extremely vulnerable to becoming very ill off a covid infection. One example being post transplant. A child who is post transplant is very vulnerable also from the common cold and literally any other type of infection. This is literally nothing new.

I think it is important to adapt, which is why it is pointless to accuse people of being pro or anti-lockdown as anyone with any sense will adapt to the situation at a given time. I supported lockdown and closing the schools in January as Covid was rife and clearly a danger to children, staff and the wider community (and I’d point out it was covid and NOT the teaching unions which caused the closure of school). It is good they are open now as many adults are vaccinated and as protected as possible - but I wish they had vaccinated school staff as early as NHS staff, so we were protected in March. Some of my colleagues are still not fully vaccinated and still at risk from the rising cases in schools.

The rise in cases shows to me that schools really do aid the spread of Covid. Whilst I don’t think children should be isolating whilst the vaccines seem to be working, there is a strong case for booster vaccines for school staff, mask wearing in schools if vaccine effectiveness wanes and money spent on ventilation and providing more space NOW. Children do get ill with Covid - a number I taught are still struggling with the effects of long Covid - but the impact of not dealing with schools is far reaching and affects school staff and the wider community.

Mask wearing does help stop the spread of Covid. Covid is a real (and deadly) illness and children do get sick with Covid. Lizard people aren’t real 🙂.

Do we think maybe test positivity is going up in young people because the older population are vaccinated now? This is common knowledge, don’t use it to support an argument that suddenly younger people are more susceptible in schools.

The science community can’t agree on vaccines and risk for children. So you can spend all day posting arguments for either side.

I have always been grateful that this virus doesn’t appear to affect children as much as older people. That again is a fact. You can say there are exceptions but there are for every illness. You can’t argue this virus is as severe for most children as most adults.

When you are referring to “no mitigation measures in schools” what time period are you referring to? When you say “didn’t end in disaster”, what “disaster” are you referring to?

We had no mitigation measures in schools between Sept-Dec and it ended in disaster as due to a spiralling infection rate in children and a spiralling death rate in adults, there was no possible way to justify keeping them open during the third lockdown and so they closed from Jan to March.

You said that before Christmas instead of being concerned about kids isolating but there most immediate concern was the closure of schools, which has even more detrimental effects on an even larger number of children.

Well they completely fucked up then didn’t they? If they’d paid attention to the rising infection rates and rising number of kids having to isolate, they’d have spotted the problem and accepted that something needed to be done to mitigate the spread.

Because they resolutely were against any mitigation measures, schools ended up closed from Jan to March.

They utterly failed to prevent and actively campaigned for lack of mitigation that led to the closure of schools. Which was apparently their main aim to avoid. Good job them.

Maybe time to move forward now given the vaccine programme and that things are returning to how they were pre covid.

Not sure it’s good for anybody to endlessly look back.

@beyondstresssedandmore

Thanks that's very helpful. My DC has conditions mentioned in those lists that have changed status over the past year; it is quite difficult to find information about why that is.

@cornflowersandpoppies

Maybe time to move forward now given the vaccine programme and that things are returning to how they were pre covid.

Not sure it’s good for anybody to endlessly look back.

It's also important to plan for the autumn when we are going to have some complicated dynamics with people getting unwell, with covid again and also with flu. it will be different, and the vaccines will help of course, but there will still be challenges (and it's not impossible we will need some of the same measures again).

I'm quite sure it's not good to pretend there won't be any of these challenges going forward.

@coconutmonkey

Actually, we've been talking about this since very early on in the pandemic. There has been an extremely active group called Us For Them involved in lobbying and protesting for children for over a year. You just haven't seen it on the news.

Believe me, we've seen 'em on here.

I have always been grateful that this virus doesn’t appear to affect children as much as older people. That again is a fact. You can say there are exceptions but there are for every illness. You can’t argue this virus is as severe for most children as most adults.

But the situation we are in now and even more so after 19th July is that we are going to enable the virus to spread without control through an unvaccinated entire population of children. Thankfully yes this variant is not causing severe infections in the majority but, a small percentage of 12 million is still going to be a significant number of severe illness. Yes this rings true for other illnesses but this is a unique situation due to it being a completely new virus.