Anti-lockdowners pretending to care about kids again

[noblegiraffe]

So it's all over the news about how nearly 400,000 kids are having to isolate because of covid cases in schools. Complaints about how disruptive to education it is and to the mental health of the children involved. This disruptive isolation must end as soon as possible.

Contrast to last November when nearly a million kids were self-isolating in a week. Do you remember the headlines, discussions and outrage about that?

No, of course you don't. Because back then, the solution to so many kids isolating was to put more mitigation measures in schools and attempt to stop so many kids catching it.

Now they can argue that it doesn't matter if all kids catch it, they're all over the 'terrible' isolation figures which are less than half of those last year.

I'm SO done with people only caring about kids and education when they think that they can use them for their own benefit.

If these loud voices could be used to talk about things like the cuts to pupil premium, the pitiful covid catch-up funding, the critical shortage of teachers, the unsafe state of schools, the massive waiting lists for CAMHS and SEN services, then maybe I'd believe them when they claim to care about children.

So basically you can’t show any evidence that they aren’t an anti-lockdown campaign group using children to argue an anti-lockdown agenda to counter the evidence provided (see the byline times article) that they are an anti-lockdown campaign group using children to argue an anti-lockdown agenda.

That contrary to their claims of being a grassroots parent-led organisation they are actually a slick, well-funded and resourced outfit with political and personal links to other anti-lockdown campaign groups.

[quote Chillychangchoo]@herecomesthsun

Of course it’s airborne 🤣 which is why a crappy bit of material left down under your nose will not work. I mean kids are hardly trotting about in medical grade masks.

Not rocket science.[/quote]
Infections were surprisingly well controlled from March 8 until the time when the rather foolish decision to discontinue them was made.

Although the clever kids in my son's rather academic school are choosing to keep wearing them (their year has managed to stay in school, for the time being).

And yes he wears it over his nose and has spares to change as needed, and we wash them.

attacking masks and teachers and schools = anti lockdown faction

So do you argue that there are no social, emotional, health, wellbeing, educational harms causes to children by being made to wear face coverings all day?

When you say “attacking teachers and schools” what are you referring to exactly? Do you deny the NTU campaigned vociferously for the closure of schools? Do you argue that this was not harmful to children.

“Keeping schools safe and open”
Do you argue that there can be no difference of opinion on what measures are proportionate, necessary and effective for achieving those aims? Do we just assume consensus about this (new flash we are far from consensus here).

“Supporting catch up funding” - fine. But what about avoiding policy choices that put some children behind to start with?

@herecomesthsun

I’m so pleased the clever kids in your sons rather academic school are still wearing them correctly. How utterly delightful.

Unfortunately the peasant kids in my sons inner city state school do tend to wear them below their noses. Utter dunces they are.

Toodles.

@noblegiraffe

So basically you can’t show any evidence that they aren’t an anti-lockdown campaign group using children to argue an anti-lockdown agenda to counter the evidence provided (see the byline times article) that they are an anti-lockdown campaign group using children to argue an anti-lockdown agenda.

That contrary to their claims of being a grassroots parent-led organisation they are actually a slick, well-funded and resourced outfit with political and personal links to other anti-lockdown campaign groups.

Not at all. I was questioning why you are seeking to prove that they don’t care about children through presenting evidence that they hold anti-lockdown positions or are associated with anti-lockdown groups. So what if they are/ do? A person may be anti-lockdown (completely or partially) because they are concerned about the impacts of lockdown on children. (They may be concerned about children and anti-lockdown). Proving they are anti-lockdown doesn’t prove anything in terms of their concern (or lack of , as may be) for children.

bitawiz says Let’s debate those points with evidence and reason

Looking forward to the evidence that ‘no mitigation measures’ in schools didn’t end in disaster.

Did cases not stay low in schools through March and April due to the fact we were in lockdown until May? Not down to masks. I do think we place far too much importance on masks. They may be effective when used correctly. Which most kids don’t. Reusing, playing with them, not wearing correctly.

I firmly believe (and BBC reported) that rates in schools reflect the rates in the community.

We came out of lockdown and that coupled with delta meant rates inevitably rose everywhere.

I also believe that children have suffered disproportionately in this pandemic. That they should be in school. That doesn’t mean I’m anti-lockdown (I’m not pro either I think it’s an emergency measure) or part of some weird group. I was happy to sit in my home for months with everything else shut so kids could go to school. I firmly disapproved when everything opened last May (pubs etc) yet schools still stayed closed.

I think isolations are unnecessary and damaging.

@noblegiraffe

bitawiz says Let’s debate those points with evidence and reason

Looking forward to the evidence that ‘no mitigation measures’ in schools didn’t end in disaster.

When you are referring to “no mitigation measures in schools” what time period are you referring to? When you say “didn’t end in disaster”, what “disaster” are you referring to? This may help me locate something of relevance. (Although I’d like to point out I didn’t start this thread, so not sure why the burden of proof falls to me!!)

do you argue that there are no social, emotional, health, wellbeing, educational harms causes to children by being made to wear face coverings all day?

So this is for secondary school.

I think it makes sense to take masks off if someone is trying to do a presentation to the class. Son does that now.

Speaking just from personal experience, DS with asthma and probable autism is quite keen to keep wearing his mask. Exceptions could be made for kids with those sorts of conditions who can't wear a mask. They were of course never absolutely compulsory anyway. Just a useful adjunct sensibly supported by the government.

Social harms ? not really, probably better being in school with a mask than being at home. Most of the chatting and playing games happens in break time, outside.

Emotional harm? Not for most. Maybe for some, with PTSD from abuse etc. Exceptions for those would made.

Health? better than getting covid. Son has had fewer coughs overall.

Educational? better than being out of school, for the most part. Could remove to aid discussion.

There's no proper scientific evidence of significant harm from mask wearing in secondary school, despite millions of kids wearing masks at times over the past year.

And I used to wear a mask for medical reasons in the London smog aged 5 upwards, and really it was a benefit not harmful at all.

There is all kinds of evidence demonstrating 1) that schools- particularly primary schools - are not a major driver of transmission; 2) that covid is not especially dangerous or harmful to children 3) that closure of schools and other so called “mitigation measures” (which themselves are unproven in terms of their effectiveness) are harmful to the protection and wellbeing of children, especially vulnerable children.

Could we see them, please?

[quote Chillychangchoo]@herecomesthsun

I’m so pleased the clever kids in your sons rather academic school are still wearing them correctly. How utterly delightful.

Unfortunately the peasant kids in my sons inner city state school do tend to wear them below their noses. Utter dunces they are.

Toodles.[/quote]
Toodles?

The kids are sensible enough to figure out that wearing a mask in a pandemic of an airborne disease is a good idea.

Unlike many adults, unfortunately.

I am hoping that one thing to come out of this pandemic will be a respect for science and intelligent discussion of scientific arguments.

For example, you could teach your son how to wear a mask properly and why that would be important. If you understood the reasons yourself.

@herecomesthsun

Which then brings me back to my point whereby the kids in my children’s school basically do wear them below their noses. Obviously (because you’ve stated) the clever kids in your child’s “rather academic school” wears them properly. Not really sure why we needed that info, but yeah cheers!

Well that’s not the case in all schools then is it? It’s a tokenistic “seen to be doing some mitigations measures” that in the real world do absolutely fuck all.

@herecomesthsun

do you argue that there are no social, emotional, health, wellbeing, educational harms causes to children by being made to wear face coverings all day?

So this is for secondary school.

I think it makes sense to take masks off if someone is trying to do a presentation to the class. Son does that now.

Speaking just from personal experience, DS with asthma and probable autism is quite keen to keep wearing his mask. Exceptions could be made for kids with those sorts of conditions who can't wear a mask. They were of course never absolutely compulsory anyway. Just a useful adjunct sensibly supported by the government.

Social harms ? not really, probably better being in school with a mask than being at home. Most of the chatting and playing games happens in break time, outside.

Emotional harm? Not for most. Maybe for some, with PTSD from abuse etc. Exceptions for those would made.

Health? better than getting covid. Son has had fewer coughs overall.

Educational? better than being out of school, for the most part. Could remove to aid discussion.

There's no proper scientific evidence of significant harm from mask wearing in secondary school, despite millions of kids wearing masks at times over the past year.

And I used to wear a mask for medical reasons in the London smog aged 5 upwards, and really it was a benefit not harmful at all.

Ok well I disagree with you about masks. I think faces are really important for communication (I think there’s an important reason for the evolution of the human face!) I think lots of people (not just a small minority) struggle without the ability to read people’s lips/ faces/ struggle to hear others correctly/ struggle to interpret others’ emotions etc. I think masks are really uncomfortable. They can be hot and itchy and distracting. People can experience them as suffocating. Etc. Remember when Muslim teachers were banned from covering their faces when teaching in schools? We used to have a very different view of the importance of the face for education, communication and social interaction.

Anyways, even if we disagree about masks , I think we can at least agree that there are differences of opinion/ a debate to be had, and it is reasonable to believe that someone might be concerned about mandatory masks in schools because they are concerned about the welfare of children (even if you disagree).

@Delatron

I think masks and testing together were a big help in managing the return to school safely.

The rates before Christmas in schools were very high; rates are now rising again. My personal opinion is that mask-wearing is very sensible in schools. Especially in the context of an airborne disease, in a crowded indoor setting, where there are lot of unvaccinated people, some of whom are clinically vulnerable.

It has the advantage of being pretty inexpensive;

And we all have masks now, because we got them in March, so easy to implement.

I'm still confused how it's meant to be better channeling your breath out the side of your mask onto the person sitting next to you in class? Do people think the mask sieves out the germs or something? I can tell you from the steam inside my glasses it doesn't and as it's harder to be heard you expel more breath and reduce distance. That's before you get on to the germs transferred onto the mask from adjusting it and storage. Randomised trials show they're useless, which is why adults don't wear them in meetings, bars, restaurants etc so why should children?

[quote Chillychangchoo]@herecomesthsun

Which then brings me back to my point whereby the kids in my children’s school basically do wear them below their noses. Obviously (because you’ve stated) the clever kids in your child’s “rather academic school” wears them properly. Not really sure why we needed that info, but yeah cheers!

Well that’s not the case in all schools then is it? It’s a tokenistic “seen to be doing some mitigations measures” that in the real world do absolutely fuck all.[/quote]
Just that the kids had worked out themselves that it's a good idea. Good on them, I thought.

It’s really none of your business if I decide to teach my child to wear a mask effectively. I am simply giving you an example of another type of school. My son often can’t wear one anyway due to his brittle asthma. Double edged sword really for him. He wears one correctly when he is able to do so in classrooms. I’m not with him every second of the day though and him going to a “not very academic school” who knows 🤣.

Oh okay we are back to square one again now, so because I disagree with you that means I can’t have an “intelligent” conversation.

Right

@ChloeDecker

There is all kinds of evidence demonstrating 1) that schools- particularly primary schools - are not a major driver of transmission; 2) that covid is not especially dangerous or harmful to children 3) that closure of schools and other so called “mitigation measures” (which themselves are unproven in terms of their effectiveness) are harmful to the protection and wellbeing of children, especially vulnerable children.

Could we see them, please?

Sigh. You can of course do your own google/ research. Evidence of this is everywhere, Here’s to get you started- (just a flavour located on the spot while I watch my toddler). “Schools are nit a major driver of transmission” (I realise this is an article but it contains evidence) www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56061942 Covid is not especially dangerous to children adc.bmj.com/content/106/5/429

Harm to children caused by covid measures
bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/5/1/e001043

@GiveMeNovocain

I'm still confused how it's meant to be better channeling your breath out the side of your mask onto the person sitting next to you in class? Do people think the mask sieves out the germs or something? I can tell you from the steam inside my glasses it doesn't and as it's harder to be heard you expel more breath and reduce distance. That's before you get on to the germs transferred onto the mask from adjusting it and storage. Randomised trials show they're useless, which is why adults don't wear them in meetings, bars, restaurants etc so why should children?

As an adult, I wouldn't be unmasked in an indoor meeting where I was crammed close to people. Actually I would not want to be in that situation!

I would be willing to be outdoors in a meeting unmasked.

You can't eat food easily while wearing a mask, which is why people can't really wear them in restaurants. Again, I've only eaten outdoors in that situation, I can't really talk about restaurants from recent personal experience.

I think it's plausible that they limit the circulation of air containing viruses, at least to some extent, at least for a while.

I think that the return to school went so well in March because we had been in lockdown since January so we’ll have to just disagree. Testing helped too but we continue to test...

The ‘disaster’ or whatever the OP describes isn’t due to the removal of masks it’s due to the fact we came out of lockdown in May and cases rose in the community and in many schools. But not all. We haven’t had any in our primary and just one in secondary.

It’s at the stage now where if grown men and hug and sing and dance and lick each other’s faces in the name of a football match then no I don’t think children should sit in masks all day.

@Chillychangchoo

It’s really none of your business if I decide to teach my child to wear a mask effectively. I am simply giving you an example of another type of school. My son often can’t wear one anyway due to his brittle asthma. Double edged sword really for him. He wears one correctly when he is able to do so in classrooms. I’m not with him every second of the day though and him going to a “not very academic school” who knows 🤣.

Oh okay we are back to square one again now, so because I disagree with you that means I can’t have an “intelligent” conversation.

Right

Well, presumably it would be hard to explain why and how to wear a mask if you don't get why people are wearing them?

@Delatron

I think that the return to school went so well in March because we had been in lockdown since January so we’ll have to just disagree. Testing helped too but we continue to test...

The ‘disaster’ or whatever the OP describes isn’t due to the removal of masks it’s due to the fact we came out of lockdown in May and cases rose in the community and in many schools. But not all. We haven’t had any in our primary and just one in secondary.

It’s at the stage now where if grown men and hug and sing and dance and lick each other’s faces in the name of a football match then no I don’t think children should sit in masks all day.

Well I don't think we should have those matches with 10s of thousands in the crowds, no.

but just because we have this "experiment" going on with the football crowds, it doesn't mean we should be without the few mitigations that are possible in schools

@herecomesthsun

I’m crammed up close to people at work with no masks on so I guess we all think differently and our anxiety levels differ. Our service users are exempt from mask wearing and they need to see our facial expressions. Do you not feel very safe now post vaccine?

How long do you think kids should wear masks for? Until they are vaccinated?

@herecomesthsun

Oh yes I’m that low in intelligence I forgot to explain to my child how and why to wear a mask. Maybe all the other kids parents did too.

Wow you’re very mumsnet aren’t you ?

Why sigh? It was you who said you wanted a debate with evidence, after all.

Thank you for the first article from Northern Ireland back in Feb, which does concede that schools do drive transmission, albeit not on a major scale but I wonder what they would make of the Delta variant.

The second article is quite hard to find a date on and the only one Incan see is from October 2020. It also states in that non peer reviewed article:

Whether children are also less often infected by SARS-CoV-2 is an ongoing debate. Large epidemio- logical studies suggest that children comprise only 1 to 2% of all SARS-CoV-2 cases.6–8 However, these numbers heavily depend on testing criteria and, in many reports, testing was done only in individ- uals who were symptomatic or required hospital- isation, which is less often the case for children. Some studies suggest that children are just as likely as adults to become infected with SARS-CoV-2.

However, this study on the Delta Variant (date. June 2021 from Imperial) says that Youth test positivity rate five times higher than seniors and considers the affect the Delta variant is having symptoms on young people
spiral.imperial.ac.uk/handle/10044/1/89629 but in the interests of transparency, it is a current working paper on the REACT study, which is also a very good read on current cases in schools.

I’m afraid I cannot load your last link as I just get this error message when I click on it.