Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

No, I saw that :) I really don’t need info on how vaccines/immune response work but thanks anyway!

[quote bumbleymummy]@MRex I wonder why you picked the paper you did when it doesn’t show what you stated and what I asked about. A strange choice.[/quote]
I thought you were interested in how the adaptive immune response works, because you were asking about how the vaccine immune response works. I've attached some more accessible articles that may help - see above.

Clearly we do have a level of protection or we wouldn’t be below predicted levels of hospitalisations/deaths right now.

Yep. The vaccines are working, and that’s great. But we’re not at herd immunity levels yet - and we know that too, because of infection levels. For the ‘wall of immunity’ you talked about, we need more. A lot more.

Iirc there was an article several months ago (pre-delta) saying that we would not be able to achieve herd immunity with vaccination. (Would require over 100% vaccination coverage).

Interesting, can you recall where? Most I saw from that time had it much lower than that.

And I didn’t say that we knew what Children’s antibodies levels are - just that there would be plenty of children with antibodies because of the number of cases in schools - so we can’t assume that they are all not immune.

No, we shouldn’t. But we have very little basis to know what their antibody levels are - so it’s prudent to proceed with caution and a dash of pessimism.

I’m not sure why you seem to think you’re in some superior position wrt information about this tbh.

I’m not. I have access to all the same data as you do. I just seem to be more willing to use it in good faith (eg not talking about first dose figures when we all know first dose alone doesn’t perform well against the dominant strain in this country.)

@NC276

www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/Risk-of-transmission-and-reinfection-of-SARS-CoV-2-following-vaccination.pdf

This might be helpful although it is pre-delta so may not be as applicable.

The antithesis of some of the raging individualism on this thread:

Mum told me this afternoon about a teenager who served her meals in the hospital. He has decided to delay his University place due to Covid. So he volunteered in the hospital, until it became too dangerous during the last lockdown for volunteers. He had a catering qualification, so hospital employed him instead to prepare and serve meals.

Completely lifted my Mum’s spirits during her hospital stay, first thing she told me about.

Thank you @bumbleymummy .

@MRex that’s not what I was asking, as I’m pretty sure you know. I asked what you were basing your statement on and you linked to a paper that didn’t support what you stated snd therefore didn’t answer my question.

I spend a decent amount of my days reading much less ‘accessible articles’ but thanks anyway.

@JassyRadlett you were the one that mentioned a ‘wall of immunity’ which I assumed you meant as something different to ‘herd immunity’. There doesn’t seem to be a general consensus on the threshold required for herd immunity irt vaccination or a combination of natural/vaccine induced immunity.

The 80% I referred to was adult antibody levels from the ons and was a combination of vaccination and natural immunity - I wasn’t citing 1st dose figures.

I will look for the article. I think it was from Feb/March.

@Hornbill123456789

The antithesis of some of the raging individualism on this thread:

Mum told me this afternoon about a teenager who served her meals in the hospital. He has decided to delay his University place due to Covid. So he volunteered in the hospital, until it became too dangerous during the last lockdown for volunteers. He had a catering qualification, so hospital employed him instead to prepare and serve meals.

Completely lifted my Mum’s spirits during her hospital stay, first thing she told me about.

That's really heartening, as is the news that so many young people have been taking up offers of the vaccines this weekend.

@youshouldbeplotting what a lovely guy, and my Mum said he was just so kind and chatty.

He clearly ‘gets it’, my 10 year old ‘gets it’ and I actually think my 2 year old ‘gets it’ more than some comments I read here.

You get your choice, you get your consequences. If everyone waited for long term data then where would we be?

I am not interested in whether other people have had the vaccine but I do think it's wrong not to. As I understand it, it teaches your body to recognise a certain protein. That's it. Very low risk compared to very real and high risk from covid.

Yep. The vaccines are working, and that’s great. But we’re not at herd immunity levels yet - and we know that too, because of infection levels.

But vaccines don’t stop people from becoming infected...

Very low risk compared to very real and high risk from covid.

Except covid isn’t very high risk for young, healthy people.

@Dustyboots

Yep. The vaccines are working, and that’s great. But we’re not at herd immunity levels yet - and we know that too, because of infection levels.

But vaccines don’t stop people from becoming infected...

as has been discussed heavily (with multiple sources linked), it's reduces the chance of both infection and subsequent transmission to someone else substantially

the fact that it doesn't do this in 100% of cases is not a reason to not get vaccinated, and is not common in other vaccines

the fact that it doesn't do this in 100% of cases is not a reason to not get vaccinated, and is not common in other vaccines

It is common in other vaccines.

www.immune.org.nz/vaccines/efficiency-effectiveness

This lists efficacy and length of protection in childhood vaccines.

@bumbleymummy that’s just so highly disingenuous. I don’t believe that you simply don’t understand the impact of high numbers of Covid cases on hospitals - the knock on effect to other services it provides to young and old, and the long waiting lists for treatment.

@Dustyboots

the fact that it doesn't do this in 100% of cases is not a reason to not get vaccinated, and is not common in other vaccines

It is common in other vaccines.

i feel like you're just here to poke holes in anything you can @Dustyboots

in comparable pathogens, like influenza, vaccine efficacy is nowhere near 100%

even if this wasn't the case, I'm not sure how you could argue that not having it (ie 0% efficacy) is better than having any protection at all

But vaccines don’t stop people from becoming infected...

They significantly reduce the risk of being infected and of transmitting the virus. Wher are you getting this disinformation from?

Do you really think the mass vaccination programme wouldn't have been as successful as it has been if it doesn't work at all? Really?

Think about it - If the vaccine didn't work there would be no point in having it and billions and billions of ££££ would have been wasted.

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1112

post.parliament.uk/covid-19-vaccines-and-virus-transmission/

www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/may/02/vaccinated-people-less-likely-to-pass-covid-on

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56904993

@ollyollyoxenfree I don’t think that anyone is stating that as a reason not to be vaccinated. It just means that vaccinated people can still potentially be infected and transmit infection so they can also still put others at risk (so it’s unfair to treat unvaccinated people as if they’re the only ones that can put people at risk - particularly when some of them may be immune after recovering from infection.)

@Dustyboots

the fact that it doesn't do this in 100% of cases is not a reason to not get vaccinated, and is not common in other vaccines

It is common in other vaccines.

literally from the source you quoted

No vaccine is 100% effective, a small percentage of people are not protected after vaccination and for others the protection may wane over time. Also, some people are unable to be vaccinated due to certain conditions such as immune suppression. Maintaining immunity in those around these people protects them from disease.

[quote bumbleymummy]@ollyollyoxenfree I don’t think that anyone is stating that as a reason not to be vaccinated. It just means that vaccinated people can still potentially be infected and transmit infection so they can also still put others at risk (so it’s unfair to treat unvaccinated people as if they’re the only ones that can put people at risk - particularly when some of them may be immune after recovering from infection.)[/quote]
Posters are repeatedly using it as an argument to not get vaccinated, when clearly (in terms of infection and transmission) it is better to be vaccinated than not

It is common knowledge that these vaccines are not 100% effective, and that vaccine failure occurs at a relatively high rate, particularly in older populations, and that immunity will wane over time

I don’t think that anyone is stating that as a reason not to be vaccinated. It just means that vaccinated people can still potentially be infected and transmit infection so they can also still put others at risk (so it’s unfair to treat unvaccinated people as if they’re the only ones that can put people at risk - particularly when some of them may be immune after recovering from infection.)

This is what I was trying to say.
I’m not ‘poking holes’.

The vitriol in the voices of some of you is further-pushing me into a corner of vaccine refusal I’m afraid.

The problem is - when someone who sees Covid purely in terms of their own personal risk, and cares so little about the wider impact of their actions on society - it comes from a place of deep self importance and self superiority. Trying to make them see sense is impossible. They will deny, embrace pseudoscience, find anything that continues that sense of ‘I’m special, I know better than everyone else, the scientists are lying, I’m being victimised’ rather than address the fact that they might be wrong.

@Dustyboots

I don’t think that anyone is stating that as a reason not to be vaccinated. It just means that vaccinated people can still potentially be infected and transmit infection so they can also still put others at risk (so it’s unfair to treat unvaccinated people as if they’re the only ones that can put people at risk - particularly when some of them may be immune after recovering from infection.)

This is what I was trying to say.
I’m not ‘poking holes’.

The vitriol in the voices of some of you is further-pushing me into a corner of vaccine refusal I’m afraid.

@Dustyboots vaccination is a personal choice, I don't think anyone is trying to persuade you otherwise

it's justifying the choice with misinformation (i.e., vaccines are commonly 100% effective but this one isn't, it doesn't stop you transmitting it, they cause long term side effects) that personally I think is a little unnecessary

Imagine the state the country would be in if we’d all decided not to have the vaccine…..