Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

@MRex Thanks for the link to the interesting paper but I’m not sure why you think it shows that the ‘immune response would be more severe with the disease itself’ as you stated.

I have my flu jab every year. I dont have a problem with vaccines. Im still considering this one. Im not saying no.

@RedToothBrush "the underserving patient and the undeserving poor"

YES Ive seen many similarities to the way the two groups are talked about on here.

I would rather lockdown for another year or two than have something that will give me long term health problems

For yourself? Crack on. For the rest of us? There are swear words handy for comments like that irl

There's nothing stopping you having a self imposed lockdown at all.

@riveted1

“new variants (no matter how scary MSM makes them out to be) are unlikely to suddenly to be completely evasive to prior immunity. In the same way 'flu mutates each year, but it doesn't rip through the population because we have centuries of prior immunity.”

So if you believe this when why push the idea that we have to vaccinate everyone in case a ‘vaccine resistant strain’ emerges. As I said previously, a less virulent strain is just as likely to emerge and that would actually be A Good Thing. If prior immunity (from current vaccines or previous infection) is still protective then new variants aren’t really a problem.

I would rather lockdown for another year or two than have something that will give me long term health problems

If you want to remain in lockdown, that’s your decision but the majority are doing everything they can to ensure that it is lifted and we can return to a more normal life.
I’ve had both vaccinations and given them to hundreds. I’m feeling positive about the future.

As I said previously, a less virulent strain is just as likely to emerge and that would actually be A Good Thing.

A less virulent strain would need some other kind of selection advantage though, one assumes around transmissibility - and to be mild disease still with sufficient viral load to outperform eg delta. I mean, it would be bloody brilliant.

But given the potential impact of something that eg has the transmissibility of delta but better able to evade vaccines, or hits kids harder, or something else, it feels prudent to plan and try to prevent the shit ones while hoping for the miracle.

There's nothing stopping you having a self imposed lockdown at all.

If someone chooses not to have the vaccine and decides to have a self imposed lockdown that is fine by me. They are still taking measures not to spread the virus.

@JassyRadlett well a plan is one thing. Living like the worst is definitely going to happen is another.

Living like the worst is definitely going to happen is another.

So what’s the plan, if it doesn’t involve some short term ‘let’s not fuck this up before we’re able to meet any new variants with a wall of immunity’ measures?

[quote bumbleymummy]@riveted1

“new variants (no matter how scary MSM makes them out to be) are unlikely to suddenly to be completely evasive to prior immunity. In the same way 'flu mutates each year, but it doesn't rip through the population because we have centuries of prior immunity.”

So if you believe this when why push the idea that we have to vaccinate everyone in case a ‘vaccine resistant strain’ emerges. As I said previously, a less virulent strain is just as likely to emerge and that would actually be A Good Thing. If prior immunity (from current vaccines or previous infection) is still protective then new variants aren’t really a problem.[/quote]
@bumbleymummy

i've posted this quite a few times

reduced efficacy from prior immunity means more people need to have this (lower level of) immunity to provide population level protection

If someone chooses not to have the vaccine and decides to have a self imposed lockdown that is fine by me. They are still taking measures not to spread the virus.

Yep, totally. Good for them. They’re recognising that their choice has implications for others and are taking steps to reduce kt. Respect to them.

(not the pp)

@JesusInTheCabbageVan Thank you

@shewalkslikerihanna I'm sorry to hear that about you, and your DD. I think the way women are often treated during pregnancy and birth is absolutely appalling, and birth trauma is not taken seriously enough. So glad your DD had those healing water births afterwards.

[quote bumbleymummy]@JassyRadlett well a plan is one thing. Living like the worst is definitely going to happen is another.[/quote]
but why do think easing restrictions slowly is living the like the worst is going to happen?

surely it's exercising necessary caution?

[quote bumbleymummy]@MRex Thanks for the link to the interesting paper but I’m not sure why you think it shows that the ‘immune response would be more severe with the disease itself’ as you stated.[/quote]
Vaccines are composed of whole pathogens or antigen(s) variously combined with adjuvants, preservatives, stabilisers, other excipients and remnants of the manufacturing process. All of these ingredients, as well as the volume of liquid to be injected, can potentially cause symptoms on injection. Injection of volumes larger than 0.8 ml is reported to cause more pain than when the volume injected is smaller.83

Live-attenuated vaccines contain whole pathogens that are designed to replicate within the body inducing mild infection, potentially inducing mild disease symptoms.84 Fever and rash may occur after measles vaccine, peaking 5–12 days after vaccination which coincides with the peak in viral replication. Live-attenuated vaccines contain an array of antigens and innate immune triggers which usually makes them immunogenic, but potentially more reactogenic than combinations of purified antigens.

It's your body and your choice and I fully support that. However you are relying on those willing to have the vaccine to get us (and you) out of this mess.

Choices come with consequences which we take account of when we make these decisions.

You have made your choice and now need to own it rather than regret it and hide it.

I've decided not to have it yet but the vitriol from many who are vaccinated has led me to keep quiet on the subject. I have no wish to enter debates about my choice in real life or be constantly hounded by some of the more 'militant' people I know.

I avoided the conversation within my work team for as long as possible. Last week unfortunately I could avoid it no longer and I smiled and said of course I'd had it, I had second dose last week.

That now what I'll tell anyone who asks in rl. It's a shame it's necessary tbh.

@JassyRadlett

Living like the worst is definitely going to happen is another.

So what’s the plan, if it doesn’t involve some short term ‘let’s not fuck this up before we’re able to meet any new variants with a wall of immunity’ measures?

But we have a walk of immunity . Over 80% of adults have antibodies. (And probably a significant amount of children too given how it’s been circulating in schools)

@ollyollyoxenfree I think you may think that says something that it doesn’t.

@Mumski45 no, the population are relying on the most vulnerable being vaccinated to reduce the strain on hospitals. The uptake In the most vulnerable has been very high.

[quote bumbleymummy]@ollyollyoxenfree I think you may think that says something that it doesn’t.

@Mumski45 no, the population are relying on the most vulnerable being vaccinated to reduce the strain on hospitals. The uptake In the most vulnerable has been very high.[/quote]
can we have a debate without resorting to snide comments?

you asked for evidence that 'the immune response would be more severe with the disease itself’ which was a surprising comment in itself. Vaccines contain part of the virus which will stimulate an immune response, the virus contains many other proteins which will trigger a greater immune response, hence why illness is greater post natural infection rather than vaccination.

It's why vaccine were invented as a means to get some level of immunity without exposing someone to the whole virus. The paragraph I linked from the paper was one such reference to this.

[quote bumbleymummy]@MRex Thanks for the link to the interesting paper but I’m not sure why you think it shows that the ‘immune response would be more severe with the disease itself’ as you stated.[/quote]
When you read in any paper about adaptive immune response, or about response to the antigen, what they mean is that's how your body is responding to the specific thing you're being vaccinated against. In the case of the covid-19 vaccines in use in the UK, it's a very mild version of how the body responds to the spike protein. The spike protein exists in the virus, so there can be some side effects related to symptoms from that bit of the virus, but not from the rest of the virus. Some people might not react at all even though they still build immunity, they would likely still have had virus symptoms. It's possible that mounting a spike protein response happens less frequently with older people, which is why they have lower side effects but worse virus symptoms.
These articles may be interesting:
www.huffpost.com/entry/covid-vaccine-side-effects-predict-symptoms_l_605a09dcc5b66a80f4eb23c0/amp
www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccines

[quote MRex]@MercyBooth - that sounds very distressing and I'm sorry you went through a difficult time with what sounds like long-term impact if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. I hope you raised loud and lengthy complaints about that doctor, to prevent them causing similar problems for others if nothing else. While I can understand your upset, declining vaccines because of it does seem more like cutting off your nose to spite your face, a vaccine is to help you be less unwell if you catch covid. The idiot doctor won't know nor care that you're taking a stand like this, the impact falls back on you again.[/quote]
And that tone doesn't win back trust or confidence.

Honestly a little more tact and sympathy isn't hard. And is essential to dealing with problems of this nature.

If I'd have been talked to like that (again) by doctors I wouldn't have had my son and probably wouldn't have be willing to have the vaccine despite my anxiety over covid.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Im not being snidey. I was replying to mrex who stated “ Other rare side side effects are an uncommon immune response e.g. arthritis flare, myocarditis.
The immune response set of side effects would most likely be more severe with the disease itself.”

I was asking for evidence that there are more incidents of this type of immune response reaction after natural infection than after vaccination. If you look at papers that came out after the h1n1 pandemic there was quite a lot of evidence on autoimmune reactions after vaccination but similar types of reactions after infection were considered quite rare. That paper does not show that there is a higher rate of immune response related side effects after natural infection than after vaccination, which is what I had asked for evidence of.

@mrex please see above for what I was actually asking about.

Sorry,

I was asking for evidence that there are more severe incidents of this type of immune response reaction after natural infection than after vaccination