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Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

985 replies

ToTheLetter01 · 18/06/2021 14:59

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 20/06/2021 14:08

The immune response set of side effects would most likely be more severe with the disease itself.

Do you have a link to any papers on this? Vaccines in general will do rather than specifically covid vaccines because they’re so new.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 20/06/2021 14:09

I think our young, on the whole, have responded with bravery and with altruism to the COVID pandemic. Of course there are always a selfish minority.

Most young people I know are dead keen to get vaccinated, both to protect their older relatives and to avoid a disease which could make them feel really very grotty for a couple of weeks.

Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 14:10

Anyone trying to deny that Brazil’s Covid death rate is ‘ok’, or India’s death rate is ‘ok’ needs to seriously give their head a wobble. Or to try and manipulate statistics to minimise/deny the horrendous situation they are facing SERIOUSLY need to give their head a wobble.
If your individualism is leading you to deny reports, data and statistics reported on a worldwide level - purely to ‘justify’ your stance, then something is very, very wrong.

Lucidas · 20/06/2021 14:10

@bumbleymummy

Allowing coronavirus to circulate in a significant proportion of the population has meant restrictions are still needed in order supress transmission to manageable levels.

But that’s the point, transmission isn't actually a problem unless it’s causing mass hospitalisations and deaths, which it isn’t. We are well below the levels that the models predicted and yet we’re still being told that we need restrictions and we have to vaccinate more and more people.

And yes the whole ‘but mutations’ argument but, as you said yourself, it’s unlikely that a variant is going to arise that will be completely resistant to prior immunity (and given that most of the world are not vaccinated, that argument falls a bit flat anyway).

You realise that we still haven’t opened up anywhere near fully as a society and economy right?
NC276 · 20/06/2021 14:11

@Parker231

Those not having the vaccine will be the first to complain when restrictions continue. On a plus point I was giving vaccinations yesterday and the numbers were huge. Queues as far as you could see, mainly young people. I don’t care why they are having it so long as they are.
Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread, but I actually said that I appreciate that restrictions may continue for the unvaccinated.
riveted1 · 20/06/2021 14:15

@bumbleymummy

Allowing coronavirus to circulate in a significant proportion of the population has meant restrictions are still needed in order supress transmission to manageable levels.

But that’s the point, transmission isn't actually a problem unless it’s causing mass hospitalisations and deaths, which it isn’t. We are well below the levels that the models predicted and yet we’re still being told that we need restrictions and we have to vaccinate more and more people.

And yes the whole ‘but mutations’ argument but, as you said yourself, it’s unlikely that a variant is going to arise that will be completely resistant to prior immunity (and given that most of the world are not vaccinated, that argument falls a bit flat anyway).

but this ignores the fact that current transmission levels are far far lower than they would be than if we hadn't vaccinated so many "non-vulnerable"?

As I said in a previous post, the fact that new variants will lead to a reduction in efficacy of prior immunity is an argument for vaccinating more people, not less. The lower the efficacy, the more people we need to vaccinate in order to generate population-level protection.

If the vast majority of the population had be vaccinated by the time the delta variant had entered the UK, it wouldn't have been a significant problem. Vaccines and prior immunity seem to have lowered efficacy, but the majority of people having this (lowered) protection, will protect everyone else. Clusters could then be mopped up by a functional test and trace system. Having everyone vaccinated enables a level of control that means even if new strains are partially resistant, you're still not back to square one.

speckledostrichegg · 20/06/2021 14:17

My friend has been very poorly after both Az, stabbing pains in chest and blood clots, still bleeding 6 weeks after second one

@shewalkslikerihanna

multiple CVSTs? and still bleeding from where, the injection site??

bumbleymummy · 20/06/2021 14:26

@TheReluctantPhoenix young people are anything but ‘selfish’, regardless of their vaccine status. They’ve probably sacrificed the most this last year, and they’re the least likely to be seriously ill.

@riveted1 you can’t really say that because we hadn’t finished vaccinating the top 9 groups when we moved on to others. We started opening up schools etc when many had only had their first vaccine, if even. You are assuming that vaccinating the lower risk groups has made a difference to hospitalisations etc but it may actually have made little difference in comparison to what it would have been if we’d only fully vaccinated the older population. Ireland haven’t vaccinated too many young oriole yet but their hospital numbers/deaths have come right down too.

bumbleymummy · 20/06/2021 14:28

Really not sure what point you’re trying to make about prior immunity. You previously said that you don’t think a variant that can evade prior immunity will arise.

MRex · 20/06/2021 14:28

@bumbleymummy

The immune response set of side effects would most likely be more severe with the disease itself.

Do you have a link to any papers on this? Vaccines in general will do rather than specifically covid vaccines because they’re so new.

Sure, here you go: www.nature.com/articles/s41541-019-0132-6.
Hornbill123456789 · 20/06/2021 14:29

Society is at far more threat from rampant individualism. The hoarding, the denying, the absolute refusal to listen to science, the hypocrisy, the complete inability/unwillingness to relate to others. Those intent on self preservation at all costs - so long as ‘I’m ok’/I’ll ignore the rest of society. The government may be bad, but much, much worse are the views of many on here.

This is what has led to ‘them’ and ‘us’. I’ve tried to have a certain amount of patience. I’ve lost it tbh.

riveted1 · 20/06/2021 14:35

@bumbleymummy

Really not sure what point you’re trying to make about prior immunity. You previously said that you don’t think a variant that can evade prior immunity will arise.
but I've said it a couple of times now? I never said "I don’t think a variant that can evade prior immunity will arise".

It's not binary, the emergence of new variants reduce the efficacy of prior immunity. This means more people need to be vaccinated in order to confer population level protection. I gave the example of how if everyone had been vaccinated, the delta variant would have been far less of problem, even though prior immunity is clearly less effective than it is for older variants.

It's not whether mutations are a "problem or not a problem"

Cornettoninja · 20/06/2021 14:43

I agree @Hornbill123456789. I particularly struggle when it’s masquerading behind a veneer of offence and persecution complex’s in an attempt to divert criticism not least because it often hijacks a legitimate concern for a minority. I find these groups use fantasy to ignite further outrage over things that haven’t happened and are highly unlikely to.

Vaccine passports is a good example, there are legitimate reasons and a precedent for proof of vaccine for international travel and countries don’t have control of what one another decide to do. Internal passports to access a shop or cinema was never a viable option in the UK and this was confirmed pretty early on yet this agenda is still being pushed as evidence of a ‘big brother’ tool. There are more than one organisation using fear as a tool which is conveniently ignored by those busy rallying against authority on behalf of a self-appointed authority.

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 20/06/2021 14:49

@speckledostrichegg

My friend has been very poorly after both Az, stabbing pains in chest and blood clots, still bleeding 6 weeks after second one

@shewalkslikerihanna

multiple CVSTs? and still bleeding from where, the injection site??

I've seen this poster on another thread. She claims her friend has been shitting blood clots for six weeks...

The thing I find most off about the 'waiting for long term data' brigade is... you do realise there's no long term data on what COVID does to you, either? It hasn't been extensively tested by the WHO and been given the thumbs-up as a thoroughly wholesome, family-friendly virus. For all we know, it knocks ten years off your life expectancy or makes you grow three arses in 20 years' time.

LittleRed53 · 20/06/2021 15:08

There's been some really interesting and reasoned posts on this thread that I've really appreciated reading, especially @RedToothBrush @winched among others.

The issue of distrust resulting from white coat syndrome, in turn resulting from bad experiences, is one I personally relate to very much.

I'm extremely vaccine hesitant, and reading some of the posts discussing this specific aspect of the reasons for hesitancy really struck a chord with me.

Trying to be succinct, but I'm not even middle aged yet and I've had so, so many negative experiences in medical settings that it's simply ridiculous to me to think I can possibly trust anyone in the medical profession. Yes, there have been a handful of kind professionals who've clearly known their stuff. But the majority, to me, have been dismissive, condescending, far more concerned about hospital/facility policy than care for the individual, and very satisfied that their education and their literature has informed them to a far higher standard than a pleb like me could ever attain.

One specific area for me has been in the domain of prenatal care and birth. I suffered so much trauma at the hands of professionals who insisted they were doing what 'the science' said was best, and yet I went on to learn that much of those practices are not at all based on what is best, but only what protects hospitals from litigation, what is simply traditionally accepted as 'how things should be done'... (I don't live in the UK though so I can't speak to the NHS's practices in this area). My subsequent utter distrust and fear of being treated that way again made me declare, when I fell pregnant the second time, "I'll give birth in a field before I ever set foot in a hospital again." And I meant it with my whole being. I went on to have 3 home births, which were actually free births as I phoned the midwife too late each time (consciously done the 2nd and 3rd times, if I'm truly honest with myself). Of course some will say I took a foolish risk and I was just very lucky. Maybe there's some truth in that. But I'll be damned before I risk a healthy, uneventful pregnancy with the red tape obsessed, over controlling medical professionals, who will do things to me without my consent and even without my knowledge, and not care one iota for the pain and trauma they cause me.

So others will have to accept that I have genuine reasons to question what professionals say is 'the science' or 'the best way' especially when contrary opinions do abound, and for me the jury is far from in on the issues weighing most heavily in my mind.

I have autoimmune problems that I was fobbed off over for years (back when I lived in the UK), and to me, the covid jab would 100% feel like playing Russian roulette with my health, which has already been shot since I was 20. So, given that I already work from home, social distance/mask up when appropriate, and don't mingle much in society, I'm not willing to pull that trigger.

Perhaps covid would be a bigger risk to me if I caught it, but to me, the chances of catching it are small, given my lifestyle and behaviour. Whereas if I get the jab, I have 100% chance of risking serious side effects. That's how the odds play out in my mind.

I hate feeling this way, honestly. I wish I could have the confidence in the vaccine that ALL of my friends and family have. Being the only one who is hesitant is mentally and emotionally exhausting at times, even though I don't draw attention to myself over it. But no matter what studies I read or whose advice I listen to, these doubts don't go away because I simply do not trust the government, the media, the medical establishment or the scientific community.

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 20/06/2021 15:52

@LittleRed53 Flowers your post is very compelling and I completely understand why you feel that way.

winched · 20/06/2021 16:05

Internal passports to access a shop or cinema was never a viable option in the UK and this was confirmed pretty early on yet this agenda is still being pushed as evidence of a ‘big brother’ tool.

But it was?

You are bravo-ing another poster saying they are sick of 'the denying' and then in the same post denying that something was an option when it was an option that was clearly on the table.

The early-on confirmation was U-Turned when they sent Gove away to investigate it.

And also no, I don't think this is evidence of a 'big brother' tool (if you mean 1984? If you just mean surveillance then there are far more obvious places to look for evidence tbh, like the parliament's own publications widely available online)...
I'm merely trying to point out the hypocrisy in your post. Or at the very least, the sweeping misinformed statements.

If something can't be confirmed/ denied with a quick google just do what most posters do and start with I think, or in my opinion. Saves other people feeling like they're living in a parallel universe.

Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure
Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure
shewalkslikerihanna · 20/06/2021 16:45

@speckledostrichegg

My friend has been very poorly after both Az, stabbing pains in chest and blood clots, still bleeding 6 weeks after second one

@shewalkslikerihanna

multiple CVSTs? and still bleeding from where, the injection site??

Rectum Passing lots of clots
JustABloodyMinute · 20/06/2021 16:46

"I would rather lockdown for another year or two than have something that will give me long term health problems which I do feel these jabs may do. I have 3 young children and also work so believe me lockdown is no picnic."

It's is your choice not to take the vaccination, but If you'd prefer another lockdown then (assuming yours are at school) I'd be happy for you to homeschool and thereby reduce the chance of my children getting sent home to isolate because their bubbles have burst (again).

MarshaBradyo · 20/06/2021 16:48

I would rather lockdown for another year or two than have something that will give me long term health problems which I do feel these jabs may do. I have 3 young children and also work so believe me lockdown is no picnic.

Up to you stay home with them as you want. But no the rest of us will be vaccinated and use school without disruption, soon hopefully.

shewalkslikerihanna · 20/06/2021 16:49

@LittleRed53i had three horrible birthing experiences also
As did my Dd with her first born
So much so, she hired a private’ midwife and had two more water births
Much pleasanter
I understand your concerns as I have them also

RampantIvy · 20/06/2021 16:51

I would rather lockdown for another year or two

For just yourself and your family or the whole country @OnTheBrink1?

ollyollyoxenfree · 20/06/2021 16:54

Rectum
Passing lots of clots

@shewalkslikerihanna

My sympathies to your friend but is incredibly misleading to say someone has suffered several blood clots after the AZ vaccine when you mean they have anal bleeding.

it's not remotely similar!

MercyBooth · 20/06/2021 17:12

I can't understand why needing a paramedic for a serious illness would lead to a conclusion that someone shouldn't take vaccines to prevent illness

Some quack took him off Diazapam overnight YES LITERALLY overnight on a Thursday natch. And left me to cope with someone who was going through withdrawl of a medication that he had been on for decades. That weekend was horrible I never want to go through something like that again. It was on the Saturday night i had to call a paramedic. If you do this it has to be done slowly under controlled conditions. But if you want to play games like that bastard did you admit someone to a clinic and do it properly. Not have the assumption that wifey can just do it and she will just have to cope. He had a heart attack a few months later. The ambulance wasnt called due to his illness. It was because some doctor (that he had been sent to) decided to play God and left DH and his wife who is untrained in dealing with someone going through withdrawl to just deal with it.

Like i said , trust takes years to earn but seconds to lose!!!

MRex · 20/06/2021 17:22

@MercyBooth - that sounds very distressing and I'm sorry you went through a difficult time with what sounds like long-term impact if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. I hope you raised loud and lengthy complaints about that doctor, to prevent them causing similar problems for others if nothing else. While I can understand your upset, declining vaccines because of it does seem more like cutting off your nose to spite your face, a vaccine is to help you be less unwell if you catch covid. The idiot doctor won't know nor care that you're taking a stand like this, the impact falls back on you again.

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