Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

I was really hoping more data would make me feel better and convince me to take the vaccine

The anecdata is horrific. I don’t believe we will ever see the full picture of the various side effects

This has meant that I don’t trust the system any more

@Roonerspismed

I was really hoping more data would make me feel better and convince me to take the vaccine

The anecdata is horrific. I don’t believe we will ever see the full picture of the various side effects

This has meant that I don’t trust the system any more

Anecdata is always going to be biased towards giving you a negative view. People will always get more attention / be more vocal than those who have had a really non descript non eventful experience.

You should be mindful of how this distorts perceptions of reality.

This is precisely why we properly study these things.

@Roonerspismed

I was really hoping more data would make me feel better and convince me to take the vaccine

The anecdata is horrific. I don’t believe we will ever see the full picture of the various side effects

This has meant that I don’t trust the system any more

what data have you been looking at @Roonerspismed? Worth considering that anecdata (is this lots of anecdotes? I haven't heard it before but it's catchy) is going to be collections of bad experiences because no one bothers sharing and then spreading "i had the vaccine and it was fine" on SM, so not necessarily representative

Such trust in “scientists”. I hope to god you have misplaced that trust.

“There can’t be any long term effects as there is no biological way they could occur” has to be the LEAST reassuring thing I have heard

Have a wee read of the MHRA reports, which are assumed to underreport by a huge amount.

The anecdata is from the many people I know or beyond. To be fair, only one clot but also several strokes (older people), fatigue, joint swelling and rashes for WEEKS. In nine of the strokes has there been any suggestion of a connection. My dad has started having chronic migraines - age 72 - 4 weeks after the vaccine. Mum has tinnitus. Just “minor” things, they haven’t seen their GP.

I simply don’t know if we are seeing full safety data. When the MHRA missed the brain clot issue I knew they were utterly useless. The Germans got it as realised needed more diligence as a new technology. So what else does the MHRA not see? The numbers reported are AWFUL

@Roonerspismed

Such trust in “scientists”. I hope to god you have misplaced that trust.

“There can’t be any long term effects as there is no biological way they could occur” has to be the LEAST reassuring thing I have heard

again, why?

predicting side effects based on biological plausibility is often used when designing/repositioning drugs, or recommending to them to groups not included in trials like children and pregnant women

it's true that there's isn't a hypothetical mechanism for vaccines causing long term effects (ie things appearing 6 months or so afterwards), based on what happens in the body after you're vaccinated

@Roonerspismed

I was really hoping more data would make me feel better and convince me to take the vaccine

The anecdata is horrific. I don’t believe we will ever see the full picture of the various side effects

This has meant that I don’t trust the system any more

Why does anecdata about covid illness and death not matter, but anecdata about vaccines do? Why do you believe random people on the internet over medical professionals? It's a genuine question, it's really confusing to me how you don't see the difference in scale between the common bad effects of covid-19 making people extremely unwell with 128,000 dead and the very rare incidences of serious side effects from vaccines despite ten times as many having vaccines as have had covid.

@Roonerspismed

Have a wee read of the MHRA reports, which are assumed to underreport by a huge amount.

The anecdata is from the many people I know or beyond. To be fair, only one clot but also several strokes (older people), fatigue, joint swelling and rashes for WEEKS. In nine of the strokes has there been any suggestion of a connection. My dad has started having chronic migraines - age 72 - 4 weeks after the vaccine. Mum has tinnitus. Just “minor” things, they haven’t seen their GP.

I simply don’t know if we are seeing full safety data. When the MHRA missed the brain clot issue I knew they were utterly useless. The Germans got it as realised needed more diligence as a new technology. So what else does the MHRA not see? The numbers reported are AWFUL

but the MHRA reports of side effects are anything which has occurred after vaccination right? similar to the VAERS in the US

these rates needs to be compared to the general population, as things like (for example) miscarriage occur at fairly high rate in normal circumstances - 1/3 women. It's only if this rate is significantly higher in the vaccinated population that you start investigate a causal link.

I was really hoping more data would make me feel better and convince me to take the vaccine

What exactly is it your hoping to be convinced of though? You can’t look for general reassurance and expect to find that in any area of medicine. There are always risks involved and sometimes specific concerns will never be 100% addressed. Scientific answers work on maths and there will always be two sides the equation. It’s pointless convincing yourself that you’re just waiting for an absolute when it’s unlikely to exist within your personally set boundaries.

The anecdata is horrific. I don’t believe we will ever see the full picture of the various side effects

I disagree. Covid vaccines have been distributed widely in a short time frame. This will be the most reliably studied vaccine in medical history. The UK’s yellow card scheme (and forgein equivalents) essentially rely on anecdote to find actual trends.

This has meant that I don’t trust the system any more

I suspect either you never did or have never been in the position to ponder it before. Medical science has risks but we take those to achieve amazing advances but even then there is rarely a complete mitigation of risks involved. There’s no compulsion in individuals to participate but not comprehending it isn’t a reason to publicly state it’s not trustworthy and slightly lacking in self-awareness. There’s no shame in saying that you don’t understand something and therefore your not happy to participate but don’t pretend that the reassurances you’re saying you need wouldn’t also be a format that you don’t fully grasp.

The risks are publicised as much as the benefits and it’s individual choice to weigh those up. It’s a valid choice to look at the information presented and decline as much as it is to take part but we’re all reliant on those who understand the intricacies to explain the risk/benefit because we can’t all be experts and have the knowledge required.

Let’s not kid ourselves that we’re making choices off the back of our own expertise.

I haven’t had the vaccine yet because I am pregnant and will probably wait until 20weeks for most of the development to be completed and then assess the evidence at that time (leaning towards getting it).

However, I think don’t think it is unreasonable for me to be prevented from going on things like cruises or caring for immunosuppressed people because I pose a greater risk of infecting people in those situations. Would it be ok for a surgeon to not wear a mask while doing major surgery because they have developed a condition which made it impossible to do so?

@ToTheLetter01

People will feel understandable hostility towards those such as yourself, as they are doing their part to extricate us from this never ending world of restrictions, and you're riding on their coat-tails, unprepared to do what they're doing. No one likes a freeloader.

If you don't want hostility towards you, you need to be part of the "team", not carried by the "team".

Boris Ken Dodd Johnson is a lazy arrogant git who's messed up repeatedly but is desperate to come out of this with clean hands. He has no qualms about long-term consequences of any vaccination he just wants to get out of this mess as quickly as possible and save his own reputation, what happens over the long-term will not be his problem and will be easy to cover up.
I'm a reclusive health freak, I don't want the vaccine, I'm going to lay low until all this is over.

@ToTheLetter01

And the fact you state you're not anti-vax makes it worse... You don't even have worldview that's (unreasonable as it might be) against the use of vaccines.

If you can't under that others will see you rightly as a freeloader then you're the one with the problem.

@Roonerspismed

Have a wee read of the MHRA reports, which are assumed to underreport by a huge amount.

The anecdata is from the many people I know or beyond. To be fair, only one clot but also several strokes (older people), fatigue, joint swelling and rashes for WEEKS. In nine of the strokes has there been any suggestion of a connection. My dad has started having chronic migraines - age 72 - 4 weeks after the vaccine. Mum has tinnitus. Just “minor” things, they haven’t seen their GP.

I simply don’t know if we are seeing full safety data. When the MHRA missed the brain clot issue I knew they were utterly useless. The Germans got it as realised needed more diligence as a new technology. So what else does the MHRA not see? The numbers reported are AWFUL

So you are taking the opinion of people who haven't been that ill and haven't even bothered to see their GP to see if its something unconnected and an unrelated health condition from people as old as 72.

And you are having a go at other people for trusting scientists?

This is where I get pissed off. By all means make a decision you feel happy with but don't spout utter bollocks in the process .

The Germans are not infalliable either. Having ruled out giving AZ to older people they decided to only give it to younger groups. Then having given it to older younger people decided to completely uturn on this and only give it to older people! This decision will have cost more lives than the British policy because those in older groups were much more at risk and this happened at a crucial time whilst the risk to younger people was only ever a very small one.

The point is, this is an 'on balance' thing where you have to weight up various risks and decide which option available to you is best at population and individual level.

So 72 year old who won't see their doctor for something that probably is fuck all to do with vaccinations is batshit reasoning by anyone's standards.

By all means crack on with that level of reasoning but don't be surprised if others think your ability to assess risk is poor.

You spout nonsense. My parents have been on this planet long enough to know they will be told there is no connection. They are measured people. What difference does it make if they see their GP of not? My friend with the swollen joints has been told it’s likely AI she coincidental,

Because how does anyone know? What diligence is being done? Fuck all as far as I can see.

I would trust the German regulator’s ability to pick up on reactions far more than the uk or Us. They used extra diligence. What they do with that is up to them.

You trust the “system”, I don’t. I feel I can’t assess the risk properly due to a lack of transparency (eg the full breakdown per age - WHY is this not being given) or lack of diligence. I simply don’t believe we are seeing the short term data as we should. In terms of longer term data we don’t know - this is brand new technology.

I don’t care to be frank, what insults are levelled on me online. I never seek to change others opinions.

But I feel sick at the reports of older people dying (not of covid), the strokes, the LACK of reporting in the U.K. press (why why?), the propaganda, the data and how it’s presented (do we still know who does of covid rather than with it), and the useless MHRA.

Enjoy trusting “science”. I hope to god I’m wrong

Far too many previous posts.

I believe the government has used far too much fear to control people. We have the highest vaccine compliance in the world I believe - so it’s certainly worked.

What other data is there? The yellow card scheme is all there is! You speak as if scientists have access to a magic set of numbers - they don’t (they choose to edit their publication of stats though).

Why for example aren’t we offering care home workers the chance of antibody testing? Why isn’t is T cell memory ignored? Why aren’t we offering every vulnerable adult vitamin d testing and supplements? Why do we keep borders open to countries with a soaring new variant? Why should I trust these people when all I see is corruption and negligence at every level?

Because how does anyone know?What diligence is being done? Fuck all as far as I can see.

On an individual level, they generally can’t tell you what may have caused a particular health condition, any more than a doctor can tell a patient with 100% accuracy what caused their cancer.

My mother in law had appendicitis a couple of weeks after her second jab. It would be very easy to try to draw a correlation -but the reality is it was probably just appendicitis. People get appendicitis all the time, without apparent cause. People have strokes, get tinnitus, get blood clots, develop rashes, have miscarriages, all sorts without apparent cause. We are humans and humans like stories and explanations that make sense - but all to often in medicine we don’t get them, and it’s frustrating. It undermines the control we feel over our lives.

With the numbers who are being vaccinated both in this country and worldwide it would be astonishing if we didn’t see serious health events arising very close to when people had vaccines. That’s why scientists carry out the studies they do - as a PP said to see if they are higher in the vaccinated population or within a certain period after vaccination than in the wider population for that demographic cohort.

Why should I trust these people when all I see is corruption and negligence at every level?

I can understand this sentiment - I have a huge amount of anger towards the government over the delta variant in particular.

In making my own assessments I like to look outside the UK. Are we an outlier (as we were for a while on AZ - it took us longer to act there but I was quite reassured by the logic they set out for their decisions and how the data dovetailed with what was happening elsewhere) or is what is being reported in the UK more or less aligned to other counties?

I have zero faith in the ability of nearly any government to carry out a vast global conspiracy. Let alone our current government. Let alone one involving scientists. Most scientists I’ve ever worked with have been impressively resistant to being suppressed or their work being manipulated.

I ask myself why even those scientists who vociferously disagree with the government’s strategy and criticise them regularly are willing to accept the data - is it because they’re also corrupt? Or do they trust the data sources even from a position of extremely well-informed scepticism? I think the latter is more likely.

The system is created by and run for the benefit of the wealthy and the Powerful
I am not one of the wealthy and Powerful that is why I do not trust the system
To them we are merely pawns to be moved about for their strategic advantage

OvertheRubicon

Aldilogue very different issue, though, in Australia where the chances of you catching it or passing it on are virtually nil, so of course the risk of the vaccine is higher in comparison and there's a reasonable debate about having it or waiting (though there is probably also a reasonable debate about the families severed and longer term economic impact of keeping the border so restricted).

Here in the UK we've have a minimally functioning health service and school system and so many lives lost, serious illnesses caused and livelihoods destroyed. It makes refusing the vaccine a far more serious thing to do.

Totally understand your point and having family and friends affected by Covid in the UK has been awful to watch. Your numbers are huge compared to ours and the fall out much bigger than our situation.
However we are still restricted here especially travelling between the states which can make work difficult for people like my husband who has to travel and it keeps getting cancelled on short notice which creates big problems logistically.
I can see your point about people's choices affecting others but my main point is the division it has caused between people and the sometimes vile comments on here.
Your response to me was measured and not rude, it's a good way to respond to someone when you have differing opinions.

I honestly believe in the right to choose and ideally no restrictions if you don’t have a vaccine

But many of the comments on here make me feel differently

Many anti vaxxers on here just minimise covid (but of course maximise vaccine issues) don’t believe in lockdowns, masks etc, think it’s all a govt fear project, don’t think individuals should have any responsibility, I will do what I want, etc

Although I know this is not true of all those who don’t want the vaccine, this shit attitude makes my distrust worse and starts to make me want restrictions.

@Egeegogxmv

The system is created by and run for the benefit of the wealthy and the Powerful I am not one of the wealthy and Powerful that is why I do not trust the system To them we are merely pawns to be moved about for their strategic advantage

for sure

but in general, the wealthy and powerful, (i.e., PMs, members of governments, royalty etc) have chosen to be vaccinated, which presumably indicates they think the benefits outweigh the risks?

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-third-wave-uk-delta-variant-b941508.html

It's no coincidence that the rise in cases has been driven by those who haven't had the vaccine, or that most of the hospital admissions needing treatments are people who haven't been vaccinated.

@riveted1 isn’t that what you were saying? That there was no proven link between the mmr and autism?

@ChequerBoard
The impact of not having a flu vaccine is completely different to not having a Covid vaccine.

For younger, healthy people, it isn’t. They are being encouraged to get it to ‘protect the vulnerable’.

Why isn’t having had covid, and so natural antibodies, counted the same as having had the vaccine, which gets the body to create antibodies?
There is some research now that says they don’t need the vaccination. I think that should be taken into account too.