Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

@TheHoneyBadger

But the elderly aren't was my point. You really can't get past you can you? The point is giving a shit about other people and wanting life to get back to normal as soon as possible not just about whether you think you are at risk from covid.

So do people who don’t get the flu vaccine every year not ‘give a shit’ about the elderly patients who can’t get vaccinated/don’t develop a good immune response to their vaccine?

As someone pointed out earlier (maybe on another thread) the vaccine isn’t the elixir of life. Old/frail/ill people are still going to die.
Why this sudden concern about ‘protecting at-risk’ people anyway? It all seems a bit fake when people haven’t given them much notice in previous years (speaking from experience with immunocompromised family members being exposed to all sorts.)

Can you really not understand that many people find it irritating that you-
a) are very happy with a load of other people taking the risk of this ‘experimental’ vaccine in order for you to gather your data on its safety but not prepared to take the risk with your precious self.
b) still want to be able to take part in all the freedoms and fun stuff that come with having the vaccine (which you don’t want)
You can choose to do as you please but surely you can understand that all choices have consequences. A more restricted life is the consequence of not being vaccinated.

My partner has had both vaccines and I have had one dose what fucking freedom are you talking about. I feel like a sheep and waiting on Boris to tell us that the next variant is going to get us and all that effort was for fuck all.

@Dongdingdong

Anyone who chooses not to have the vaccine (apart from those who medically can’t have it) is a selfish git. You want your freedom? Have the vaccine like everyone else. Otherwise, stop moaning.

No. I didn’t give up my freedom on the condition of having a vaccine. I (unselfishly) gave it up for nearly a year in order to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. The vaccines have now taken the place of the restrictions in providing that. Our freedom is the default position, not something we have to earn.

*There is another thread today about the fact that around 200 cats have died. It is thought it's related to dried cat food and as a result the cat food has been recalled and there's going to be an investigation.

As expected cat owners are no longer willing to feed their cats that particular food. No ones calling them thick or stupid even though the deaths are a tiny fraction of the cat population.

There is something really wrong when 200 dead cats provoke an immediate recall and investigation and a vaccine that is claimed to have injured and killed people has not.*

Sorry - just copied and pasted from another thread because it's very relevant to this conversation.

I’ll keep an eye out for your name in a few years - if you haven’t decided to change it by then
well, no need to be weird & sinister!

are very happy with a load of other people taking the risk of this ‘experimental’ vaccine in order for you to gather your data on its safety but not prepared to take the risk with your precious self
Others have decided to take it of their own volition, you speak as if the 'vaccine hesitant' have deliberately tricked others into having the vaccine!

@Sensateria

I’ve been vaccinated but I’m aghast at some of the vitriol I’ve seen directed on here and on social media towards those that are choosing not to have the vaccine.

It’s your body, your choice and I accept and support that.

Same

The people I talk too is predicting another lock down. It's not the vaccines its the youngsters when they go out to play in the night clubs. You cant hold young people down they want to have fun and have relationships and hanky panky.

@Egeegogxmv

are very happy with a load of other people taking the risk of this ‘experimental’ vaccine in order for you to gather your data on its safety but not prepared to take the risk with your precious self Others have decided to take it of their own volition, you speak as if the 'vaccine hesitant' have deliberately tricked others into having the vaccine!

No. It's not about the reasons why people HAVE had the vaccine. It's about the reasons why people have chosen NOT to have the vaccine

I have spoken to people who have decided not to take the vaccine and I don't judge because it's their body their choice.

@Egeegogxmv
And what happens if we all choose not to have it?? How precisely do we get out of this mess if we all choose not to be vaccinated?
Of course I’ve not been tricked. And like many people have said, not having it is a choice. But not doing so comes with potential consequences. Just like choosing to have it comes with potential consequences.

If only there was a vaccination for stupidity.

@Dustyboots

*There is another thread today about the fact that around 200 cats have died. It is thought it's related to dried cat food and as a result the cat food has been recalled and there's going to be an investigation.

As expected cat owners are no longer willing to feed their cats that particular food. No ones calling them thick or stupid even though the deaths are a tiny fraction of the cat population.

There is something really wrong when 200 dead cats provoke an immediate recall and investigation and a vaccine that is claimed to have injured and killed people has not.*

Sorry - just copied and pasted from another thread because it's very relevant to this conversation.

Is it though?

People have stopped using that particular brand of cat food because there are about a million other easily available types of cat food. Of course it's not odd to move to a safer option when there are hundreds of them. I'm sure if it was feed the cat the food with a slight risk attached or feed them nothing and let them starve to death people would stick with the cat food!

The difference here is that there are no safer options. The safest option is the vaccine, both at an individual and a population level, even with the (very, very small) risks associated with it.

If only there was a vaccination for stupidity.

How would you feel that after taking these vaccines there was no end to lockdowns. What if we were the stupid ones let's not forget what happened back in the 70's or 80's when they were giving pregnant women anti sickness jabs.

[quote Smartiepants79]@Egeegogxmv
And what happens if we all choose not to have it?? How precisely do we get out of this mess if we all choose not to be vaccinated?
Of course I’ve not been tricked. And like many people have said, not having it is a choice. But not doing so comes with potential consequences. Just like choosing to have it comes with potential consequences.[/quote]
The uptake in older/at risk people has been very high. Over 90.% iirc and they are the ones most likely to end up in hospital. Low risk, younger people are very unlikely to become seriously ill. For the majority this is a mild disease. Natural infection also confers immunity.,

I didn't want to get it but felt I had to morally

But honestly I'd rather not have, but ultimately I feel we all need to contribute to getting back to some for of normality even if it does mean health implications down the line from the vaccine

At least the younger generation (children) can get on with life.

@Dustyboots the cat food all depends on the ratios. It’s probably just one dodgy batch of the food that’s been recalled, and probably not many cats overall have consumed it so the deaths are high for that batch overall. Therefore it makes sense to recall.

On the other hand, the chance of dying from the AZ vaccine is minuscule compared to the millions of people who have had it with no issues.

The benefits of the vaccine greatly outweigh the risks, so why would it be recalled? With cat food, they can recall it because it’s just cat food. It’s not a life saving vaccine in a global pandemic.

The two things are not comparable at all.

And what happens if we all choose not to have it??

What a ridiculous argument. Millions have chosen to have it already. So no “what if” exists.

And chosen is an important word. They chose to be vaccinated. They were not forced or tricked by those who’ve chosen not to.

I agree with your reasons for feeling you should be free to decline the vaccine and have more to throw into the mix.
For me, the vaccine is not just a health matter. It is a philosophical and political matter too. I hate what the vaccines are leading too and can't think of another way to publicly refuse to play ball... Before Covid, how would those who are happy to take the vaccine have felt about the following:

That millions of people in the UK would be “unintentionally tracked” on their cell phones as government scientists collected data on their movements. Would you haven been ok with that? This happened to vaccinated people and I can't believe there hasn't been more fuss made! news.sky.com/story/covid-19-thousands-of-people-including-some-as-young-as-17-turn-up-for-walk-in-jabs-in-variant-hotspot-areas-12308808

What about vaccine health passports, which now seem inevitable. Two years ago, would people have been ok with the idea of having a vaccine to prove they were 'clean' in order to visit a country? When a test could do the same job?

What about turning up to be administered a vaccine without even knowing what what that vaccine would be? And having no say in the choice once you got there? Pre-covid, would you have been ok with having no say about what being pumped into your body?

What about vaccinating young people against a disease that has a tiny risk of affecting them and they don't really spread? (if the government are to be believed). If that had been suggested two years ago, would you have been ok with that? With the talk of vaccinating children, that seem to be the way we're headed.

Pre covid would you have been have been happy to take a drug knowing the manufacturers have total immunity from liability if something went wrong? And the government who are pushing it wouldn't compensate you for damages either? Would that not have seemed conflicting to you? If a vaccine is of minimal risk and the government was pushing it, would you not have thought they should take responsibility for the effects?

If you were offered a jab for another illness, but that jab didn't prevent you from catching that illness or passing it on it on, it merely reduced your symptoms (possibly making you asymptomatic and therefore an unknowing carrier) would that have made sense to you pre covid?

If two years ago you would have been fine with all this, then great, go for it! I will not judge or question your intelligence.

But if, like me, all this feels like a slow decline into a dystopian nightmare then you should be free to stand up to what's happening. You should be free to make a decision that opposes the war on our civil liberties, as a conscientious objector.

So long as you test regularly (say every 2 days) and follow (non invasive) protocols to prevent any spread, you should be free from any guilt too.

In fact, I will be incredibly grateful that you're standing up for our liberty in one of the only ways available, in the face of social coercion and pressure from a lying government.

Thank you.

@Dustyboots

Except for the stage where they look for the long term effects

For some reason we're not allowed to talk about this ...

Which also makes me feel very uncomfortable. My gut feeling tells me none of this is right.

Discussing this is important and sensible, but that's not what you're doing @Dustyboots

you're just saying vaccines cause long term effects and linking anti-vax misinformation from people like Clannsen and Richard Halvorson

People have asked how a vaccine could cause long term effects (ie the biological mechanism) when there's no precedent, but you haven't been any to provide any credible sources

happened back in the 70's or 80's when they were giving pregnant women anti sickness jabs.

1958-61. At least do some basic bloody research.

@Egeegogxmv

No critical stages have been missed Except for the stage where they look for the long term effects

this makes literally no sense

trials and the roll out all happened last year, obviously there is no longer term data than from then onwards, it couldn't possibly exist

as with all new vaccines, they will be monitored for the next 2 years

We are the guinea pigs for this vaccine and obviously we will have to live with covid for a very long time. It isn't going anywhere covid is the new flu.

@Dustyboots

Thank you RTB

I guess it depends on how much you trust science in general and how much you know about how it works.

This is very particular to individuals and will affect the choices they make, which is why it is so important that this should be seen as a choice - rather than a fight. It's not just about how much we trust science (I don't so much, sadly, due to many mess ups with different family members over the years) but also how much we trust the government/media and the information we are being fed. My trust in both of these is extremely low at the moment also.

What also pisses me off is that as you say We don't know how long the vaccine gives us protection. Its untested for covid. is very true. But the media/government/scientists portrays the protection from Covid itself as being even more questionable. I see this as downright untrustworthy. It undermines my confidence in the whole program and it's propoganda tbh

You need to question the information you get to the contrary in exactly the same way though.

Not just that I trust this more simply because its NOT one of the groups I distrust. (Them v us thinking).

And I think this is where a lot of people who don't want the vaccine also fall down.

They already have a view that they don't want the vaccine so seek out information that merely backs up that view rather than also holding it to proper scruntity because it aligns with what they want to believe. This often is coming from highly questionable sources with dubious agendas.

Personally I have a general distrust of doctors and healthcare professionals generally. To the point that its been a problem for me (my posting history will testify to this). That said I'm a massive fan of Margaret McCartney who wrote a book on how healthcare is somewhat corrupted by agendas. This has helped me to understand the principles and things to look for for weaknesses in data etc thanks to that. And find good quality information which goes contrary to the orthodoxy. I try to always look at that not what the media say (for example I have real concerns and objections to the cervical screening programme and I'm pro-ELCS for birth fear for some women - though I think this is also now 'oversold' as a magic bullet). I have to do this for myself rather than just taking what I''m told by the media at face value.

However despite this I am reasonably confident in whats coming out and the current data being encouraging with the vaccines. What should be happening is. (It also helps I have a close friend who is a data nerd who is following the data and making all manner of graphs to illustrate the point).

Its good stuff.

I have my second jab on Monday, and after being rough as sin for several days after the first, I admit I'm dreading it. However, I also just want it done and over with.

Everyone evaluates risk differently. Its something that people are notoriously bad at though tbh (again its a huge long term bee in my bonnet which people on MN who know my pet subjects will know about).

I would never tell people they absoluetely are wrong to not have the jab. What concerns me more is whether people are making properly informed decisions or making emotional decisions based more on mistrust / dislike of media or politicians rather than logic decisions based on information from reputable sources.

We absoluetely should be asking questions about the stuff we don't know - its important. But we also have to ask good questions about the alternative path and I'm not convinced that many anti-vaxxers do this, because they are driven by emotion first not good critical thinking.

For that reason its not good enough to say I'm not having the vaccination because I dislike Mr Bloggs or the Daily Rag for that reason. You should also be able to reason an argument based on clear points regarding the data / information / ommission of data or information / solid long term concerns based on previous vaccination programmes. It needs to be relevant to this public health programme.

As long as people's reasoning and decision making process is solid, I'm good with that. I'm less comfortable with those who are making decisions based on bollocks and my bollocks detector goes off and I will challenge people where I think its needed. Hopefully fairly.

If people still want to stick to that decision, again fair enough, but I do think its important to try and encourage good decision making - as opposed to telling people they are making the right/wrong decision.

I hope that makes sense.

I am confident in the vaccine and the safety of it. I think that this will be born out in due course over the long term too. (fwiw, episode one of BBC4's Extra Life: A history of living longer www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000w6s5 is really interesting on the history of the development of vaccines, how they work and where the future science is going - which covers the pandemic but is more about the wider importance and value of vaccine programmes - and how previous vaccinations have been demonstrated as being safe / worth doing).