Compulsory Vaccinations for Children

[Banjo36]

I put up a previous thread that I've not been able to even see one reply on because it was hidden and then deleted (may be better if the mods open a dialogue with the OP and allow retractions?). The video I was alluding to in the thread, after doing some quick googling, may have been prior to the pandemic in which Matt Hancock was discussing compulsory vaccinations for children (MMR). So, apologies for not checking first...however, the video was simply there to pose the question of whether you'd stand for compulsory vaccination for children? Considering the Health Secretary has previously been in favour of the idea for other vaccines is it beyond the realms of possibility that they won't try it with this vaccine?

I (and my DH and children) are not having this vaccine because we’re low risk.

@bumbleymummy

I (and my DH and children) are not having this vaccine because we’re low risk.

Which vaccine though. There are several, all based on various technologies, which work in slightly different ways.

And also, I assume by your inflection, you have had other vaccines? Most diseases of which you would have been at low risk for too. So what's the rationale. Just trying to understand your blanket refusal.

Blanket refusal of what? one poster is randomly accusing me of being against all vaccines for all people, another is suggesting that I (and my family) refuse all vaccines in general because we’re low risk. Really not sure how people jump to those conclusions from someone saying they’re not having the covid vaccine (any of them) and don’t agree with compulsory vaccination for anyone.

Why do you even care why some random person on the internet has decided not to have a vaccine? Are you going to try to change my mind?

[quote speckledostrichegg]@Banjo36 you started a thread posed as a discussion regarding whether vaccines (in general) should be made compulsory.

You're now bringing in the idea that .... The central tenet of their response - Lockdown - was copied from the Communist regime. People quibbling about whether we went as far as them with human rights abuses is like arguing who is the worst serial killer

I'm pointing out that as these threads often go, the poster has very set ideas regarding a whole host of views regarding COVID, which are often irrelevant to the original question posed, and yet emerge anyway.

This was after your thread yesterday was removed for being goady and misleading.[/quote]
"Posed"

Someone can invite others to discuss something AND give their own views on the subject. I'm not the BBC - I don't have impartiality written into my charter.

My comment about lockdown being the wrong policy response was in agreement with someone's comment about compulsory vaccination being alien to our culture. Lockdown was also compulsory, it's not a giant leap to make to put the two things together, is it? Hardly "irrelevant" as you put it.

As for having "very set ideas" - I suppose you don't? I'm sure your just a ball of logic and data, emotionless, with views that are as changeable as the wind direction.

"Goady and misleading" oh dear. Someone really has a bee in their bonnet.

My apologies, bumbleymummy.
It's just that I've seen you on so many different vaccination threads over the last 8-10 years explaining why you don't think they are necessary and why your children won't be having them, I must have missed the ones that you do think are OK.

Always important to clarify.

Not vaccinating your children should 100% be a child protection issue. it's neglect.

I honestly can’t believe what I read on here most of the time. @sparemonitor All vaccines come with a element of risk and any parent should be allowed to make an informed decision. And yet allowing a child to have a vaccine with ZERO long term health studies is not a child protection issue and neglect? Whatever happened to adults protecting children? Why should children who little to no risk from Covid potentially sacrifice their health for the elderly or vulnerable? I have no words for any parent who allows or encourages their child to get this vaccine.

"Your child has no voice"

I think it sounds like it's not normally the case with parents who is pro vaccinating their children against covid. Certainly I won't vaccinate my dc against their will. We have talked about it, he learned a lot about it(there are many resources for children to understand things around covid), and he is willing to take it. So, in my case, my dc has voice.
Though I am not sure about those against. Do they give their children a choice, or do they just say no, without explaining pros and cons about vaccine?

@Geamhradh

My apologies, bumbleymummy. It's just that I've seen you on so many different vaccination threads over the last 8-10 years explaining why you don't think they are necessary and why your children won't be having them, I must have missed the ones that you do think are OK.

Always important to clarify.

I think you must have misunderstood my posts or you are confusing me with someone else. :)

@roguetomato

"Your child has no voice"

I think it sounds like it's not normally the case with parents who is pro vaccinating their children against covid. Certainly I won't vaccinate my dc against their will. We have talked about it, he learned a lot about it(there are many resources for children to understand things around covid), and he is willing to take it. So, in my case, my dc has voice.
Though I am not sure about those against. Do they give their children a choice, or do they just say no, without explaining pros and cons about vaccine?

What are these resources? Are they along the lines of the NHS guidelines that someone linked to a few weeks ago where it talks about how to ‘persuade’ young people to have the vaccine? Lots of guilt tripping and manipulative language to encourage young people to ‘get their lives back’ by having the vaccine

@randomlyLostInWales

Then it comes down to whether the state or parents are better placed to choose… and given the increasing amount of antivaxx tripe, I suspect the answer may not be the parents… Then it comes down to is it more important to protect children or for parents to have control

I would have though an education program dealing with ant vac myths and a proper talk with HCP to go through any concerns would be better approach and than assume a faceless bureaucracy was in better position or more concerned about welfare than most parents.

It is not about parental control but parents wanting the best for their child - it's just making sure they have correct information to come to the decisions rather than imposing one and leaving familes to deal with any negative outcomes.

Smallpox vaccines were compulsary but there was a campaign to stop that being so as there were fears of deaths -and by 1898 conscientious objectors were allowed to opt out.
academic.oup.com/shm/article-abstract/11/1/49/1620185?redirectedFrom=PDF - this seem to suggest by then England was able to mainintian dropping levels with reliance on surveillance and containment rather than just mass vaccinations.

On a mass population level, children are much more at risk of measles than the MMR vaccine, so there isn’t really a decision to be made based on the facts unless there’s a special health factor for the child (being a special snowflake is not a health factor).

(For covid this is not necessarily the case as the risk of covid to children is minimal.)

Interestingly in America education is positively correlated with antivaxx - I.e. it’s the more educated parents. So education would likely not increase take up.

Smallpox is a bad example to make your point because by forcing the vaccine they completely eradicated the disease, therefore it’s a huge success for compulsory vaccination. The fact that after mass vaccination and herd immunity was achieved some were able to opt out is irrelevant really.

No, it's nothing to do with NHS or trying to persuade young person, it's just some bunch of covid related videos that was created by the science video site on you tube that we have been watching for years, since way before covid.

It's great for children, as well as for adults. Certainly I learned a lot over the years watching these videos with my dc.

[[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH4BNI0-FOK2dMXoFtViWHw
it's okey to be smart]] Science channel for kids that made these videos

On a mass population level, children are much more at risk of measles than the MMR vaccine, so there isn’t really a decision to be made based on the facts unless there’s a special health factor for the child (being a special snowflake is not a health factor).

I know this and that why mine all had all the MMR jabs .

However I don't think it follows you or I have the right to dicated what medical procedures others have to undergo because we deem it in their interests with no understanding of individuals beliefs or situations.

interestingly in America education is positively correlated with antivaxx - I.e. it’s the more educated parents. So education would likely not increase take up.~

I clearly wasn't talking about general education levels -- I'm talking about countering mis-information that's out there.

John Oliver was saying few weeks ago that they'd had success in black and other marginalized communites in US where vaccine take up was initally quite low due to historical mistrust , with community leaders and medical people in the community talking to people about their fears going through what the risks actaully were and telling they and their families had had it.

By contrast white republicans had the lowest rates of covid vaccinations because their leaders were peddling the myths.

I'm not in US - but this
www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/ does seem to back up idea that after some initial hestacy they are increasing reaching such groups.

So I don't think you can say that giving people facts countering misinformation and talking through their fears doesn't' work.

There you go, nothing to worry about for those who against it, for a while at least.
On the other hand, so disappointing for some of us.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57496074

Yes, I linked to a similar article earlier in the thread.

I guess people only like the expert advice when it agrees with their own opinion.

Smallpox is a bad example to make your point because by forcing the vaccine they completely eradicated the disease, therefore it’s a huge success for compulsory vaccination. The fact that after mass vaccination and herd immunity was achieved some were able to opt out is irrelevant really.

Smallpox wasn't declared irradicated until 1980 and there were outbreaks in the UK throughout the 20th century. And smallpox didn't have an animal reservoir, we won't be able to irradicate Covid.

1978 Last UK case of smallpox

We stopped compulsory vaccination in 1898.

The new scientist had a interetsing article from vets on coronviruses - it's unfortunately behind a pay wall but the are known for crossing species and developing variants.
www.newscientist.com/article/mg25033361-100-what-coronaviruses-in-pets-can-teach-us-about-the-future-of-covid-19/

There was an example about pigs - they had one coronvirus killing young pigs with diarrhea and then it went away - turns out a very mild respiratory coronvirus had spread among the pigs unseen as it caused very mild sympotms but gave the young pigs immunity from the other coronavirus.

Not vaccinating your children should 100% be a child protection issue. it's neglect

And once again I refer you to the vaccine damage legislation.

I would have thought that all the hoo-hah over the AZ vaccine would have made people realised that vaccines are not 100% safe for everyone, and therefore choice should be given.

With regards to the AZ vaccine I decided the clot risk was very low and it wouldn't be me that was the unlucky one. Other people might take a different view. Their choice. Same goes for the childhood vaccines.

As I've said before, get you and yours vaccinated (or not) and stop telling other people what to do.

I don't think smallpox was compulsory. I had it, but that was because we travelled overseas. I don't think most people my age (late 40s) have had it.

[quote Lou573]@youshouldbeplotting

I had exactly the same thought. Worrying for the legal profession that one doesn’t know the definition of genocide![/quote]
I can't say it's a term I ever need in my day to day work but maybe the pp should know it for their sector?

I don't think vaccines should be mandatory, and I don't think that adults who don't believe in vaccines are otherwise incompetent. Lots of people believe in a religion when there's zero scientific evidence that religions have any basis in reality, that doesn't make religious people stupid or uneducated.

For the record I'm not at all anti vaccines and I'm making sure my children have theirs, but I think it's reasonable to ask at what age the ratio benefit/risk tilts in children. It's also reasonable to proceed carefully until the vaccines have been tested as we know adults and children may react differently to certain diseases, and so it's not unreasonable to wonder if they might not react differently to certain vaccines. Especially very young children whose immune system is still maturing.

I don't think smallpox was compulsory. I had it, but that was because we travelled overseas. I don't think most people my age (late 40s) have had it.

It was in UK due to The Vaccination Act 1853 which made it compulsory for all children born after 1 August 1853 to be vaccinated against smallpox during their first 3 months of life they could opt out by 1898.

I'm early 40s and not had it and in my lifetime it became eradicated.

They realised they couldn't vaccinate the whole world almost at once they realised they didn't need to. They did surveillance, case finding, contact tracing, ring vaccination and communication campaigns to better inform affected populations which got them there.

www.who.int/news-room/events/detail/2020/05/08/default-calendar/commemorating-the-40th-anniversary-of-smallpox-eradication

@looptheloopinahulahoop

Not vaccinating your children should 100% be a child protection issue. it's neglect

And once again I refer you to the vaccine damage legislation.

I would have thought that all the hoo-hah over the AZ vaccine would have made people realised that vaccines are not 100% safe for everyone, and therefore choice should be given.

With regards to the AZ vaccine I decided the clot risk was very low and it wouldn't be me that was the unlucky one. Other people might take a different view. Their choice. Same goes for the childhood vaccines.

As I've said before, get you and yours vaccinated (or not) and stop telling other people what to do.

No medicine is without risks, except homoeopathy because it's just water.

The benefits of vaccines vastly outweigh the risks (leaving out the small number of immunocompromised children who can't have live vaccines) and not vaccinating your children is neglect.

I think any child 12 and above should be able to decide for themselves. From a certain age it really should not just be a parent’s choice.
I had several friends growing up whose parents did not believe in vaccines, they all got vaccinated in their teens with the usual recommended vaccines. That is often the case.

I don't think smallpox was compulsory. I had it, but that was because we travelled overseas. I don't think most people my age (late 40s) have had it

You almost certainly won't have. It's a risky jab by today's standards, but smallpox had a CFR of about 80% so it was worth it. By the 60s, there wasn't mass immunisation because it was largely eradicated, but if there was a case, vaccinators would swoop to the area and do everyone who lived within a certain radius of a confirmed case who hadn't already been done. My elder siblings were done as it was still routine for them, and my DMum thinks I was done because she remembers there was a case (but she's not sure). If you're under about 55, chances are you didn't.

Don't be so ludicrous. They won't be compulsory. It's against international law for starters and not to mention would be completely immoral and against human rights