Compulsory Vaccinations for Children

[Banjo36]

I put up a previous thread that I've not been able to even see one reply on because it was hidden and then deleted (may be better if the mods open a dialogue with the OP and allow retractions?). The video I was alluding to in the thread, after doing some quick googling, may have been prior to the pandemic in which Matt Hancock was discussing compulsory vaccinations for children (MMR). So, apologies for not checking first...however, the video was simply there to pose the question of whether you'd stand for compulsory vaccination for children? Considering the Health Secretary has previously been in favour of the idea for other vaccines is it beyond the realms of possibility that they won't try it with this vaccine?

“ A parent who doesn't have the capacity to understand why MMR is important will obviously not have the capability to be an appropriate home educator.”

You’re making a massive generalisation there.

@sparemonitor

All benefits and access to preschool education should be contingent on vaccination. If you did that then lots who don't currently vaccinate would start - basically the vaccine hesitant would just get it done. That would reduce the numbers and then those who are left could be treated as the child abusers that they are. Not vaccinating your children should 100% be a child protection issue. it's neglect.

Neglect is defined in law and not vacinating your children isn't included in the definition. You might think that it's neglectful, but it's not neglect.

Nope. 1million% do not agree.
Forced jabs? Where does it end?

No vaccine is compulsory for kids, why should this one be?

"The Australian policy of restricting some family/child benefits for those who do not vaccinate always struck me as a good one. "

ISTR that it didn't help (possibly hindered?) vaccine uptake. I may be confusing this with somewhere else with similar policies though.

For context, DD has had all her vaccines so far but I wouldn't at the moment let her have the Covid one (this is hypothetical anyway as it's not approved for her age group).

@Bitofachinwag

Not specifically, but neither is anything else. For example it doesn't specifically state in law that you have to feed a child.

The law relates to failing to meet a child's needs likely to result in serious impairment of the child's health or development.

Be difficult currently to include covid vaccines in that definition as current evidence doesn't prove a likely risk, but that could change next week or next year depending upon what we learn about the virus, and/or what further mutations it goes through.

Or they could simply change the law.

I would argue a parent choosing to give a non vulnerable child a covid vaccine would breach that law, but there you go. Why would you subject that child to the risk of a vaccine of zero benefit to them?

Absolutely not. I don't agree with mandatory vaccinations for anyone, adults or children.

Don't work for the NHS then as some vaccinations are compulsory if on wards. Hep B is one.

@bumbleymummy

“ A parent who doesn't have the capacity to understand why MMR is important will obviously not have the capability to be an appropriate home educator.”

You’re making a massive generalisation there.

No - it's a self-evident statement.

More serious than education though, I'd have concerns that any parent who rejected the advice of the medical profession in favour of that of some random stranger on the internet, would be making other similarly stupid choices harmful to the child.

@Roonerspismed

I would argue a parent choosing to give a non vulnerable child a covid vaccine would breach that law, but there you go. Why would you subject that child to the risk of a vaccine of zero benefit to them?

Well thankfully, the bar for entry into the judicial profession is considerably above your intellectual level.

I'm on the fence on this one because I would give my DC's all and any vaccines available, and have done. My Dad (who would now be 98 if alive), was a Health Inspector, and so I grew up with all the stories of death and disease that he dealt with, Diptheria, Measle's and Polio being the big ones then. He was very pro-vaccine, it changed his world. Also, I remember two of his friends being partially disabled due to Polio. I think younger generations has lost tough what it was like pre-vaccination.

@strangeshapedpotato

Not when you don’t know the reasons why the parent has decided against the MMR (or another vaccine). It’s a bit silly to make judgements without all the information.

[quote strangeshapedpotato]@Bitofachinwag

Not specifically, but neither is anything else. For example it doesn't specifically state in law that you have to feed a child.

The law relates to failing to meet a child's needs likely to result in serious impairment of the child's health or development.

Be difficult currently to include covid vaccines in that definition as current evidence doesn't prove a likely risk, but that could change next week or next year depending upon what we learn about the virus, and/or what further mutations it goes through.

Or they could simply change the law.[/quote]
Sure, but lots of things could potentially change in the future. Why do you think choosing not to vaccinate your child (now )against covid is likely to result in serious impairment of the child's health or development?

@Roonerspismed

I would argue a parent choosing to give a non vulnerable child a covid vaccine would breach that law, but there you go. Why would you subject that child to the risk of a vaccine of zero benefit to them?

Vaccines don't have "zero benefit", they reduce the risk of catching, or becoming unwell with the disease. They also reduce the risk of passing on infection to vulnerable family or friends. You can argue that vaccine risks exceed those benefits; they don't on current numbers, but it's a valid concern to monitor; but the vaccine does have benefits.

certain allergies might not be picked up until after vaccination and then the child is kept away from future vaccines that include that ingredient. There is little effort to identify children who can’t/shouldn’t be vaccinated prior to vaccination and many parental concerns irt family history are dismissed until the child reacts badly. Even after a reaction occurs, trying to get it recognised as an adverse reaction to the vaccine rather than a ‘coincidence’ is incredibly difficult.

This would be my issue with compulsory vaccinations.

I remember asking a question of a nurse and getting a whole only silly people don't vaccinate speech - I had to wait say of course we were vaccinating now could the actual question be answered. I and family member had had common adverse drug reactions but had some HCP dimiss it could be that .

Some posters deny existance of vaccine harm - anything with an active ingredientcarries risk of harm and in mass vaccination programs those harm risks have to be extremely low but they can't be eliminated.

It's a risk/benefit calulation every time and in a family with allergies or prior bad vaccine reactions that's going to be different - I think that can be hard enough to get a proper individual risk assessment currently can't see complusary element helping with that.

No I don’t agree with compulsory vaccination but I do worry that people are making decisions after doing ‘research’ on social media and are therefore not making an informed decision

Quite. You don't compel people, you educate them.

I get fed up with the "selfish" accusations too. People vaccinate their kids for their own benefit, not for the good of society and I get fed up of virtue signallers pretending otherwise.

I am having the covid jabs for me, not for anyone else. I vaccinated my son for his benefit (and mine), not anyone else's.

I accept that there are a very few people who are vulnerable to illness and cannot be vaccinated. But for everyone else, get vaccinated yourself and take responsibility for yourselves, rather than expecting some sort of social contract to apply. It doesn't exist. Those who do have side effects from vaccines fight for years for redress.

Some posters deny existance of vaccine harm - anything with an active ingredientcarries risk of harm and in mass vaccination programs those harm risks have to be extremely low but they can't be eliminated

The fact that vaccine damage legislation exists should be a warning that serious and long-lasting side effects can happen. The risks are small but people are not always rational about their fears and I don't think they should be injected against their or their parents' wills.

I am slightly on the fence about care workers as I said on the other thread but they always have the choice to work elsewhere if they don't have a medical reason for avoiding vaccination and really don't want it.

[quote bumbleymummy]@strangeshapedpotato

Not when you don’t know the reasons why the parent has decided against the MMR (or another vaccine). It’s a bit silly to make judgements without all the information.[/quote]
@bumbleymummy

but what logical reasons are there against having the MMR or other childhood vaccinations unless contraindicated?

I have to say I find the debate over whether MMR is a good thing or not completely bizarre.

I don't think the Covid vaccine should be made compulsory until more is known, and I doubt it will be.

I am slightly on the fence about care workers as I said on the other thread but they always have the choice to work elsewhere if they don't have a medical reason for avoiding vaccination and really don't want it.

That's kind of where I am with care workers and possibly later NHS front line workers - though if it does have a massive impact on recruitment and retention I expect it would be reviewed.

I wouldn't stop my teens having the vaccine if they go ahead with school vaccinations less because of covid concerns and much more because the disruption to their education has been so detrimental.

Their DGP - who we haven't been able to see since start - are double vaccinated as are we and the rest of the adults in our family are very near to second doses if not already done- so even there vaccinating isn't about risk to older family members.

@speckledostrichegg how do you find out if they’re contraindicated? If you’ve had one child react badly to a having a vaccine, how do you determine if it’s safe for your other children?

@MareofBeasttown

I have to say I find the debate over whether MMR is a good thing or not completely bizarre.

I don't think the Covid vaccine should be made compulsory until more is known, and I doubt it will be.

I’m not sure if this post is directed at me but I’m not debating whether or not it is ‘a good thing’ in general.

[quote bumbleymummy]@speckledostrichegg how do you find out if they’re contraindicated? If you’ve had one child react badly to a having a vaccine, how do you determine if it’s safe for your other children?[/quote]
contraindicated as in, a clinician has recommended against it based on immunosuppression due to something like chemotherapy