Vaccination to be mandatory for care home staff

[Horseyhorsey3]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

It will be interesting to see how this affects retention and recruitment of staff... Or not...

"We know we put all those people at risk and killed many with a policy to move untested people into care homes, we know we didn't provide enough protection in PPE or even insist the private companies provide it and punish when they didn't because their profit margin was more important. We know we just shut elderly and vulnerable people away from their families for year, making rules that care homes had to follow, without any thought to how we could make it safer or give people more options. ....... But look! We're making all those nasty selfish care workers have a vaccine to protect the vulnerable family members you have in need of care, because we care so much about the vulnerable"

spot on

@Nietzschethehiker you can advance search me if you wish, I have mentioned several times that I’m a care worker incase you are in doubt.

I agree with you, I don’t know a single person who I work with that has refused or even been hesitant about getting the vaccine. We were begging for the booking link when the LA first sent it out. I don’t know for sure (as it’s confidential) but I believe all of our staff are fully vaccinated. And all but one of our residents is vaccinated.

I do EVERYTHING I can to protect my clients. I love them and care deeply about their well-being. I would be devastated if I infected them with any illness.

But I don’t believe the government should be able to step in and make people unemployed from a job they have been doing for years if they don’t agree to a medical procedure.

I think they should make it a new condition of employment, like a DBS check.

@ZednotZee

Very telling that the government wish to mandate the vaccine for social care staff but not NHS staff. The cynic in me tells me that this is most likely because we are a supposedly easy target due to our perceived lower educational attainment, socioeconomic status and employment prospects. Once they have forced us to have the vaccine then can use us as a shining example to mandate it for almost everybody 🙄 To be very clear; the government do not care about the effects of recruitment, nor retention of social care staff. They verifiably want the whole sector to appear to be an absolute shambles so that we can continue to be a watertight scapegoat for their wholly ineffectual management of the situation which led to the death of so many vulnerable people. I am an RGN with a first class honours degree and over a decade of experience in the sector. I shall be leaving my job if I am mandated to take this vaccine. I am not you easy target Hancock, shame on you.

Well said My son worked in 20 peoples homes a day , 12-15 hour shifts all through the beginning of the pandemic in a flimsy plastic apron, plastic gloves and an ineffectual flimsy mask..some had covid.

He just handed his notice in and did his last shift this week.
They are woefully understaffed
Cannon fodder.
He loved his job and really cared about his clients.
The whole industry is just rotten and forcing people to do something they have grave concerns about is not on.

Oh and he , his wife and children who went to school, uni and worked in McDonald’s didn’t get covid either.
So don’t go forcing it on children)

@Nietzschethehiker

I've found this thread incredibly interesting. Especially around the set and certain comments from people who claim they are carers. That's a huge range of roles so it's interesting to know in what way they are carers.

See I have spent 23 years in Social care. The last 15 in care services. I've been a carer , a senior , a registered manager and a senior manager then a Director and throughout most of that a trainer. At the height last year I was in a role that meant I sat virtually in front of 50 odd care managers across the country. I sat in front of the Care manager who moved into his service as he had a newborn at home and was worried about both residents and his family if he moved around and he cried for the first time in 20 years when he lost 12 residents in two weeks.

Quite literally my job was to assess the level of care the services were delivering. It was a good high level safe care home.

I saw care staff move heaven and earth , sacrifice everything they had to protect their residents and in Dom the service users.

I sat in front of two different care managers who had been pulling double shifts and were becoming ill from the sheer influx of residents returning from hospital with covid but being forced to take them.

I saw my friends who are carers and senior carers both in domiciliary and residential break themselves.

Not a single one of them would have an issue with this. Noone who has any real professional ability would refuse the vaccination and put their charges at risk.

That said there are a huge amount of people in care for the wrong reasons . People can get lost wittering that "anyone" can be a carer , and that DWP can force people to take these roles. You know they interview and the care manager chooses right ? You honestly think any decent service would allow people in the job just because the DWP said so?. Lots of people think they can be a carer , far less are actually capable of being a good one. In decent places the training is high level , the requirements are intense. Half of MN would fail by the third day.

It's not just washing people and feeding them. There are highly technical aspects but hey .... let's just condescend to them shall we? With stupid generalised views of a role that clearly people wouldn't deign to bother to learn about.

The only care staff , medical issues excluded, that refuse to get the vaccine are the ones that shouldn't be there.

Finally this is a non issue....no decent care manager worth their salt would allow an unvaccinated carer in their service.

It's great to have the privilege of wittering about this and debating it. Care services work insanely long hours , regularly dealing with life and death and get stepped on for the privilege. The decent ones are not debating this , while everyone else is having high brow debates the good ones are getting vaccinated and getting back on the floor. I'm not on the floor currently but ii recognise my privilege.

I am a huge advocate of bodily autonomy but on the floor any decent worker knows its a different world. It's brutal and hard but you keep going because if you don't often your service users have noone else.

I am going to come off this after this post and I male no apology for it because I am so very tired of people commenting on care services when they treat them horrifically, I guarantee you the same ones claiming to support them are the ones talking down to them and treating them like children , it's beyond offensive to claim that anyone claiming benefits can be funnelled in to a role , as if its got no need for ability or training or resilience.

I am tired of awful carers who wouldn't be allowed within ten paces of a decent service trying to speak for everyone else.

They are in the foxhole and it's only getting harder. With the exception of medical need which is totally understood by everyone no decent good carer would ever risk their service users health over this. Its part of the job. I have been back on the ground to help friends and ex colleagues through this and I have heard very little here of people who actually would be rated in the industry. I don't care how long people claim to have been in it or what they claim to do , if you are in Care you know this to be true or you are not good care staff.

Ive given up huge amounts over the years because I understood, as did my colleagues , that it was worth it and it was part of my role. If you are in it for the right reasons you accept there is sacrifice. Being in the job just for money with no understanding of the vocational nature does not make for someone who should be there. It does not mean we don't have boundaries and expectations of fairplay. It does mean we know the difference.

Best response.

My DM and her husband were in a care home in January this year. No visitors, no agency staff, full PPE, regular testing etc etc etc. Yes, prior to vaccination, BUT, even with their care home locked down and with all the measures in place, the virus got in, everyone, and I mean everyone, caught Covid, all staff all residents, and several residents died including my Mum and her husband.

Vaccinations in care homes should be compulsory, and for both residents and carers. It's just too risky not to make it so.

My daughter is a nurse and had to have the Hep B vaccination, before she could enter nursing.

[quote peridito]@0None0

Different vaccines have been mandatory in different sectors for generations.

There is a lot of uncertainty on this point ,AFAIK doctors in NHS have to have a hepatitis vac if they are to work in surgery but I don't know of other mandatory situation .Can you post links/give references to others ?[/quote]
My son now works in the operating theatres theatres
he had to have the vaxes to do his job.
He hasn’t been forced to have this jab and many of the surgeons he works with don’t want it either.

Very telling that the government wish to mandate the vaccine for social care staff but not NHS staff.
The cynic in me tells me that this is most likely because we are a supposedly easy target due to our perceived lower educational attainment, socioeconomic status and employment prospects.

My thoughts too

@GeoffreyGeoffreys

So are people allergic to the vaccine or unable to have it for medical reasons expected to lose their minimum wage job? And then presumably be unable to sign on as they refused the vaccine?

No of course not, that's not what is being said at all. Why do people always jump to the most extreme conclusions?

Slight thread digression, but I do wish people would stop going on as if the hospitals were emptied into care homes at the beginning of the pandemic. Before the pandemic, lots of elderly people were blocking beds because they could not go home. So clearly, if people were already living in care homes where they were well looked after, they'd be discharged back to them. In hindsight they should have been tested first but I wonder if anyone in the hospitals suggested it? Did the tests even exist in the sufficient numbers at the time?

And the vaccine is not "experimental". Utter nonsense.

I have a friend who's a radiographer and she also had to have the hep B jab before she got her first job.

I wish people would stop using the word “vocation” as a reason to walk all over some professions.

Just because someone feels drawn or called into a career of caring or nursing or teaching or protecting the public, it doesn’t mean the rest of society can treat them like shit and expect them to put up with terrible working conditions and just rely on people good nature to ensure these vital roles in society are filled. It’s about time vocational roles were given due respect.

@Nietzschethehiker

I've found this thread incredibly interesting. Especially around the set and certain comments from people who claim they are carers. That's a huge range of roles so it's interesting to know in what way they are carers.

See I have spent 23 years in Social care. The last 15 in care services. I've been a carer , a senior , a registered manager and a senior manager then a Director and throughout most of that a trainer. At the height last year I was in a role that meant I sat virtually in front of 50 odd care managers across the country. I sat in front of the Care manager who moved into his service as he had a newborn at home and was worried about both residents and his family if he moved around and he cried for the first time in 20 years when he lost 12 residents in two weeks.

Quite literally my job was to assess the level of care the services were delivering. It was a good high level safe care home.

I saw care staff move heaven and earth , sacrifice everything they had to protect their residents and in Dom the service users.

I sat in front of two different care managers who had been pulling double shifts and were becoming ill from the sheer influx of residents returning from hospital with covid but being forced to take them.

I saw my friends who are carers and senior carers both in domiciliary and residential break themselves.

Not a single one of them would have an issue with this. Noone who has any real professional ability would refuse the vaccination and put their charges at risk.

That said there are a huge amount of people in care for the wrong reasons . People can get lost wittering that "anyone" can be a carer , and that DWP can force people to take these roles. You know they interview and the care manager chooses right ? You honestly think any decent service would allow people in the job just because the DWP said so?. Lots of people think they can be a carer , far less are actually capable of being a good one. In decent places the training is high level , the requirements are intense. Half of MN would fail by the third day.

It's not just washing people and feeding them. There are highly technical aspects but hey .... let's just condescend to them shall we? With stupid generalised views of a role that clearly people wouldn't deign to bother to learn about.

The only care staff , medical issues excluded, that refuse to get the vaccine are the ones that shouldn't be there.

Finally this is a non issue....no decent care manager worth their salt would allow an unvaccinated carer in their service.

It's great to have the privilege of wittering about this and debating it. Care services work insanely long hours , regularly dealing with life and death and get stepped on for the privilege. The decent ones are not debating this , while everyone else is having high brow debates the good ones are getting vaccinated and getting back on the floor. I'm not on the floor currently but ii recognise my privilege.

I am a huge advocate of bodily autonomy but on the floor any decent worker knows its a different world. It's brutal and hard but you keep going because if you don't often your service users have noone else.

I am going to come off this after this post and I male no apology for it because I am so very tired of people commenting on care services when they treat them horrifically, I guarantee you the same ones claiming to support them are the ones talking down to them and treating them like children , it's beyond offensive to claim that anyone claiming benefits can be funnelled in to a role , as if its got no need for ability or training or resilience.

I am tired of awful carers who wouldn't be allowed within ten paces of a decent service trying to speak for everyone else.

They are in the foxhole and it's only getting harder. With the exception of medical need which is totally understood by everyone no decent good carer would ever risk their service users health over this. Its part of the job. I have been back on the ground to help friends and ex colleagues through this and I have heard very little here of people who actually would be rated in the industry. I don't care how long people claim to have been in it or what they claim to do , if you are in Care you know this to be true or you are not good care staff.

Ive given up huge amounts over the years because I understood, as did my colleagues , that it was worth it and it was part of my role. If you are in it for the right reasons you accept there is sacrifice. Being in the job just for money with no understanding of the vocational nature does not make for someone who should be there. It does not mean we don't have boundaries and expectations of fairplay. It does mean we know the difference.

Really support and agree with some of your points there, and I do hope that you come back and continue to contribute.

One aspect I do have an issue with though, is that protection of our residents - through a covid vaccination- is an expected part of the job. You have the experience of being higher up and a broader pov, but before covid, were there any expectations, either on the workers themselves, or the providers, to facilitate vaccination for things like flu to protect? Because there never has been in my area before. I'm also not aware of any drives to provide information, education and support to care workers, who have come into the role without even a hint of vaccination being something that would protect their residents (setting aside covid for a moment) from communicable illnesses. Add to that the minimal training (for example I had much more in depth training in hospitality around hygiene and infection control than I did in care) around IC, and for your average carer on the floor it's never been on the radar, until all of a sudden it becomes mandatory to have a covid vaccination or you're out of a job.
I understand the importance of vaccination and protection, because it's been on my radar through other areas of employment and life. Not everyone has that experience, this is new.
Instead of mandating one vaccine and hell to the concequences, I feel a better way is education, information and support around all aspects of vaccination and IC.
Instead we have a frenzy whipped up and people leaving the industry. Not good for those in care.

AIBU to think that people who say "find another job" are living on a different planet to the rest of us?

Isnt the Hep B vaccine more to protect clinicians from acquiring it at work? That was my understanding.

Don't think so, she had to have it anyway before the NHS would give her a job.

@Carlottagiudicelli

AIBU to think that people who say "find another job" are living on a different planet to the rest of us?

It's a tag line that people who don't want to think about or accept the absolute shambles social care is, that covid has highlighted it is, use to avoid the bigger problems that are being faced. Mainly the government.

@Tullyjune

Yes, I agree. It would seem we're regarded as professionals when it's deemed we should do something that is considered a professional requirement, but not when it comes to education, training, respect or pay.

Usually you have to have certain jabs to work in particular departments in a hospital. If you don't want the jab then you don't work at that department in the hospital. I'm pretty sure nurses of all branches need to have a hepatitis jab as well. This situation is no different to that except people are being hysterical about it. We need to protect the vulnerable.

@baldafrique

Be careful what you wish for...staff shortages in this sector are already horrendous

It is quite telling that nobody who supports this policy has yet engaged with the possibility that it will further worsen the recruitment issues in the care sector. I have a degree of sympathy with people who don't like to think of their vulnerable loved ones being cared for by people who might infect them, but there seems a general refusal to consider that it might in some cases be that particular unvaccinated but otherwise competent carer or nobody. I'd hate to make things even worse for people who are already vulnerable.

@Crabbyboot yes, but those people would have had the choice before starting their jobs. When the NHS made it a condition of employment they didn’t retrospectively fire nurses, doctors, surgeons, dentists, physios, radiographers etc etc. They made it a new term of contract for new starters.

It’s makes me uncomfortable that people could lose their existing jobs, that they are performing well in, if they don’t submit to a medical procedure.

Mandatory hepatitis jabs are to protect the staff.
Hepatitis jabs have a robust safety profile and have been in use for decades.

Conflating those with mandatory covid vaccines is terribly myopic.

It is not currently mandatory for healthcare works to have the Hep C Vac unless the are directly involved in an EPP (Exposure Prone Procedures) but I guess it IS heavily recommended.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/147882/Green-Book-Chapter-12.pdf

Here is the full fact check of Mr Hancocks statement...

fullfact.org/health/mandatory-vaccine-care-home-hepatitis-b/

Someone somewhere mentioned about after having the vaccine you have a 50% chance of transmitting the virus on to someone else. Not entirely true...

The bmj article www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1112 suggests one dose of the vaccine MAY reduce the the likelihood of transmission by 50% but only states this is in symptomatic cases and does NOT include numbers who have been assymtomatic

How sad for care home staff to be treated like this.

Last year they cared for many covid-positive patients discharged from hospitals, and dealt with a horrific situation.

Very harsh to be told they don’t deserve basic bodily autonomy.

I gather there is a shortfall in staffing care homes anyway. Presumably more staff will leave their jobs over this.

Hep B vaccines are to protect clinicians

I work in a care home in which all of our workers and residents have been offered vaccines not everyone has taken up on the offer of these vaccines...

If the government are suggesting healthcare workers are required to have a vaccine then shouldn't the residents also be required to have a vaccine, their visitors and anyone entering a care home?

Xenobitch
There are people in hospital with Covid who have been double jabbed.The vaccine is not 100% and it is disturbing to see people put all their faith and hope into it, and then blame people who did not have it, for any infection.

Those double jabbed in hospital will be people who are already vulnerable. There are many for whom the vaccine isn't 100% effective but they will not be the young and healthy This is precisely why it's more important for those caring for vulnerable people to have the vaccine.